LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I remember my first Broadway show, I was 17 when I went into Rent on Broadway, and I had the experience of stepping into a phenomenon, stepping into a Broadway phenomenon and I remember there was something about the theater, I mean, there were ghosts all over the Nederlander at that time, that original cast had left so much of themselves there that, yeah, those of us that were lucky enough to step in, we could like feel them. And I remembered thinking, you know, I wonder what it would be like to create something like this from the ground up, that'll be a wonderful experience to have someday.

[Theme music plays]

[Cassette tape player clicks open]

ALISA ROSENTHAL: Hey all, thanks for checking out Chicago Humanities Tapes, the audio extension of the live Chicago Humanities Spring and Fall Festivals. I’m your producer and host Alisa Rosenthal, here to help you find the answers to life’s biggest questions by looking at the best minds and brightest ideas today, curated straight to you from Chicago Humanities.

If you’re in the Chicagoland area, a handful of tickets are available to the remaining Spring 2025 live events. You can still catch Alison Bechdel, Jim Jarmusch,

Former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern, and Jeff Hiller of HBO’s Somebody Somewhere in conversation with Murray Hill. Head to chicagohumanities.org for ticket information and to sign up for our email list if you haven’t already - that’s the best way to keep up with our upcoming events.

Today, Leslie Odom, Jr. Originator of the role Aaron Burr in the Broadway smash hit Hamiliton, he reflects on his Tony and Grammy Award-winning, Oscar and Emmy Award-nominated career with NBC’s Matthew Rodrigues. You’ll hear his recs for his current favorite Broadway plays (shout out Sunset BLVD.!), his time performing in both Hamilton and Rent and his reverence for show creators Lin-Manuel Miranda and Jonathan Larson, his Tony-nominated turn in Purlie Victorious, and at the end of the audience Q&A might just treat us to a little Christmas in June. I’ve included links in the show notes to clips from many of the performances he mentions, so be sure to check those out.

This is Leslie Odom, Jr. and Matthew Rodrigues, recorded live at Francis W. Parker School as part of the Chicago Humanities Spring Festival in 2025.

[Theme music plays]

[Audience applause and cheering]

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: You must feel right at home with that applause.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: That don't happen at home, believe it.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I was thinking backstage, hi everybody, hello, he's here, thanks for not going to Beyonce.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Is she tonight?

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: She's tonight. You're competing with that right now.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I wondered if she was, was she last night and tonight?

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Yes.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Oh.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I went last night.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: You went last night!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Yes, I went. Anybody go last night? Yes! Oh my god.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I saw all the cowboy hats and the fringe. I knew she was close.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: You've met her, right?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I have.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: So what was that? Let's get into that. What was that like?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Let's talk about the real serious stuff, you know what I mean? That was as good as it gets. That was good as good it gets, I'll say, you know her and Jay, I will say, so they came to the show, of course, everybody came to the show. That was like, you know, for a little while, it was the center of the universe, you know? And so they came to the show, and they were so, so friendly, and the more important time was I did a Grammy event in New York after I'd left the show. And that's a big room full of very, very important people. J and B were there and people were respectful. They allowed them to leave for the event was coming to a close and so they were gonna leave first so they didn't get mobbed. And as they were making their way out, Jay-Z spotted me and came over, like changed his route and came over to say hi and I introduced Nicolette to them both. That was just the coolest, most gentlemanly thing. So that was the time that really mattered.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Wow, that's incredible, yeah. Go Bey. So backstage, I was just thinking, you must feel so at home behind the curtain and waiting for that anticipation to, I know this is different, you're talking about yourself, you're not a character here, but to perform. And does it still feel just where you belong?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I guess, yeah, you know, I mean, I guess. You know, it's just, I'm reading, I can't stop thinking about this book I'm reading, I don't know if he's here yet, but Jeffrey Seller is a friend of mine. He's got this beautiful book, it is fantastic. I'm about two thirds of the way reading this, and he talks about everything and how he found, made his way to the theater. So I mean it's always been my community. You know it's just where I found, where I made friends and where I was first affirmed and where really felt purpose for the first time. So yeah, I suppose so. But I feel just as at home, I think, back there as I do out there. I also feel at home. I'm in the audience more than I'm on stage. When I really think about it, I go see just as many, if not more, shows than I do. I'm going to see people and support people, so. But yeah, this, whether it's a rehearsal room or a theater or these kind of communal spaces, they do feel like home, thank goodness.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Since you're seeing so much theater, what's the last show that really inspired you?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: In New York right now, Sunset is pretty special. Sunset is pretty, special it's it's, it's arresting and strange and special. Yeah, it's you shouldn't miss it if you haven't seen it.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Fantastic. So let's get, we'll start with some Hamilton because I know that's the meat and potatoes because normally I wouldn't because I'm like, let's talk about where you are now and everything but guess what? You back at Hamilton.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I know.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Which I think I was doing this before that was announcement and then you announced it. I was like fuh yeah... But, okay, tell everyone, like, where did the concept come from, whose idea was it? Because I would think you might not want to go back to that. I don't know why. And this is probably ego, thinking, no, I've done that. If I go back, like why would I, I don't need to do that again, I already done it.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Right.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: But I think it's incredible that you want to back and explore this character again.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Well, I really think about it like collecting experiences. You know, I'm collecting these Broadway experiences, these once-in-a-lifetime experiences, what it feels like to me. And so I remember my first Broadway show, I was 17 when I went into Rent on Broadway, and I had the experience of stepping into a phenomenon, stepping into a Broadway phenomenon and and I remember there was something about the theater, I mean, there were ghosts all over the Nederlander at that time, you know, that original cast had left so much of themselves there, yeah, those of us that were lucky enough to step in, we could like feel them. And I remembered thinking, you know, I wonder what it would be like to create something like this from the ground up, you know that'll be a wonderful experience to have someday. And in between there, I got to do a Broadway flop. I did one of those shows that, I did a show called Leap of Faith. We ran for 23 performances. I remember we were, I was, we got our closing notice. We had previews and then we opened and we got a closing notice and as I was heading up to the dressing rooms, it was such a whirlwind. I remember asking somebody like, well did we open this week? Was that this week that we opened? And they were like, yeah. And we're closing, you know, we, it was, whiplash!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: So to interrupt you there, did you feel it when you were in the show? Did you really think this is gonna be a hit? Or were you like, oh, this is feeling rough?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Good question. I did not think it was the worst show in the world, right? But I didn't, you know, I didn't it wasn't like something I would like argue with every single critic and every single audience member that didn't like it. It was like, they didn't it, you now? And I knew our producers had put a lot of money and blood, sweat, and tears into it. I had done it in LA as well. So Leap of Faith had, because I had done the out of town, it had a special place in my heart. It was my first original cast. But when it closed, I was like, well, I don't need to do any more flops. That was the flop experience.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: No more leaps of faith.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah, and then Hamilton was without question. I knew that artistically, it was just, it had all the stuff that I'd wanted to do artistically. So off-Broadway, we didn't take anything for granted. I didn't know if we would transfer or what. I didn't know that kind of stuff. But once we made it through off-Broadway and went to Broadway, yes, I had the experience of like, whoa, this feels somewhat like, I bet what the original cast of Rent must've felt like. And Jonathan's family came to the show and said the same, you know. Rent brought a generation of us to the theater and so it was really healing for them to be around something that Jonathan was a part of because of Lin was so open about Jonathan's inspiration on him, and Jeffrey's a part of it. So they knew the key players, and there wasn't a tragedy at the center of it, so it was really healing for them. So that was Hamilton, and with Purlie, I got to be a part a play. After Hamilton, I wonder if I could do a play, I wonder people would buy me in an evening of theater where I didn't sing. You know, and those, the first few weeks of Purlie were that, people were coming expecting the musical. And were, you know, there were some disappointed people at first, but -

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Would they say stuff to you? Because you know the audience members just say whatever the hell.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I heard about people that were really upset, and the musical's much more famous than the play, but eventually, as word got out, especially about Kara Young's performance and this ensemble's performance, people came excited to see that play. And so anyway, I said all that to say, because I started my career as a replacement, I went into something, and I knew that eventually those those Rent cast members went back and, I mean, you know, it is quite possibly a once in a career experience that a show you've opened is open 10 years later. And that you can possibly still physically do it. Uh, you know, I, you know, I'm not gonna be, you know, I'm probably not going in for the 20 year reunion. So, or the 20 year anniversary. And so, this is, I mean, I'll do it the next show that I do that runs 10 years. I mean this is maybe something that I'll never get the chance to do again. So, no, it feels like a very unique experience that not a whole lot of performers. Get to have in a Broadway show. You know, a Broadway show, if you last a season or two or three or four, you're very lucky. So I feel just very privileged.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Then I ask you, what does the preparation look like? Did you still have it? Do you still know all the words? Do you know the choreo? And then, you must be in rehearsals now, or are you not? Where is it all? What's the timeline?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah, I'm not in rehearsals yet. And I'm not thinking -

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Must be in the living room going, "hum hum in the room where it happened. Room where it happen. Room where... "

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah, right! [Audience laughter] I'm not, no I'm gonna, I'm going to.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I'm not, yeah! Not that!

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: No, to me, I'm trusting that that kind of stuff is gonna come back. What's important to me right now is to really, the way that I've been able to kind of do as many things as interests me, right? The albums and the movies and the TV and all that stuff is that really I I am where I am 100%. You know, I tell my team the most important thing is the calendar. Because if it does not say it on the calendar, I will not be there, you know? And that is the way that when I'm with my family, I can be with my family 100%. And I can with you 100%. My mind is not anywhere else, you now? And so there's a few things that I have to do before September. Because once I'm at the Richard Rogers on 46th Street. There's nowhere else I want to be. I don't want to miss that moment. And so right now what it is is the recording and the writing and the finishing up that project and we have to do a lot of things before I go into rehearsal and give it all I've got. So mid August I'll start.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Ok. So, when you, do you think you will make changes? Obviously you will, right, because time and everything, but, because I always wonder when you open a show and you're doing that same performance, one week later, two months later, 10 months later. How can you not start to change the character? You know, like, and are you allowed to? And how, I know you're not allowed to do it a lot, I would just think when you sit with something, you'd be like, oh, I never thought of this. I never though of that line like this. You must have those revelations, and are you allowed to incorporate them? And do you think you might, I'm sure over the years, you look at that character so differently now, do you think might play things a little differently?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I think so, I remember I had this experience. Megan Hilty was a year under me in school. Any Broadway fans, Megan Hilty fans? [Applause].

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Did you see Death Becomes Her?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I did, yeah.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: It's so fun.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah, I just love her. But I remember Megan got, she was one of the first, she got a big job right out of school and I went to see her early in Wicked and then I went see her much later, maybe a year, a year and a half later. And I was so impressed. It just struck me like, yeah, she's really doing what we were taught. Her performance had deepened, she had relaxed, she was more, she found things, she had discovered things because, yeah, that's the only way to do it. It's not to go to sleep. It's to keep searching. Opening night is a doorway. It's a doorway into, okay, now we can really start looking at this thing. And that's why it's important that the writing is good enough. The writing can withstand that kind of gaze with that kind like long look, because the writing that's terrible just falls apart. When you really start to think about it, say this doesn't make any sense. So you're like, I gotta not look too hard. But yeah, a show like Hamilton, I did 500 shows of that thing. And so yeah, that certainly was worth the long look. And this, I got 12 weeks, that's a lot less than 500. And so I think, yeah, when I think about all the ways my life is different, I mean. You know, here I was playing this father. I didn't have any kids. No, I mean, my kids weren't even born. I have an eight-year-old and a four-year old now. You know?

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: And they're like, Hamilton, what?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Right, of course. So I think that that's gonna change. I mean my kids have changed my life in so many ways. I'm a different person. And then also just life and all the things that I've been through. So I, I think that there will be a different quality to the performance for sure. And then I'm doing it with different people. You know, I'm do it with all different people and I -

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Oh they must be scared shitless.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Oh, please.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: You know what I mean? It's like, Dad's back. Come on. I didn't even think of that till now.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah. Well, I have a real desire.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: And then who loses their job? Someone lose their job. Who's playing?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: His contract was up, his contract was up.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Ok!

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: But I, yeah, so it's also one of my probably one of the best pieces of advice I got from one of my acting teachers at Carnegie, Maladen was his name. And he said, I'm going to do a terrible accent. But you know, we were working on the Greeks. And I was in Maladen's class on September 11th, actually. We were working on Antigone. But I was playing Theseus, I think, he's like a holy man. Anyway, and Maladen, I tried it once, he said, you know, this guy, I like this guy. He's a good performer, he's a good actor, but I wanna see him one day when he becomes a good reactor. He said, you know, you come on stage and you've decided and so you come on stage, and you give, I think it will make you better if you take and then give. If you receive and then you give. And so I think I would make Maladen proud because I think way more about that now. I just say that to say what I'm going to be receiving from these new performers, I have to get in and learn them and figure out what we can create together because it's gonna be something new.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I have the same thing, not to make this about me, but when I first started interviewing, I, you know, I had this reel and I was like, how great I am, look at, they love me. And then the woman's like, yeah, but you're not listening. You're not listening at all. You just keep going to your next question. You are not following what you're giving me. Anyway, what were you talking about? No, I'm kidding.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: That's something else that can make it new.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: So then something else you're revisiting is this book, Failing Up, the re-release. Did anyone read it when it first came out? Y'all better have, otherwise get out. Yeah, yeah. So I wonder what it's like to go back and look at this. And I mean, I think you could write another book at this point, and have you thought about that? But let's start with this. What was it like to just look at this because it's been almost five years since it came out.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: It was, it was, you know, I have notes, but I had to accept that it was done. And my publishers have been great partners and friends to me. They came to me with the idea initially. And the book has done well. And so they, all these years later, it gets to be re-released on paperback and paperback, which will mean that it gets live in more places, it gets to live even more now in this edition. I, yeah, I still stand by everything that I said. I still stand by everything I said, I wrote the book thinking about the high school senior, the college senior, what advice would I wish somebody would have given me on graduation day. So it's written kind of like a commencement address. And those are, yeah, those are still the things that I said, I wrote one additional chapter. They wanted to, you know, see if there was anything more that I wanted to say. And there's one more thing I wanted to add, but I stand by it.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: And you should, you absolutely should. And one of those things that you added, and we were talking about this backstage, and I just think anyone that's in a space and you get stuck or you don't know how to evolve, I loved the information that you added to the end and you talk about The Artist's Way. And whether you're an artist or not, this book, it's funny because I also read that book. So I'd love for you to just speak a little bit as to why you felt like you were a little bit stuck. And I think that's pretty fascinating, someone like him would be, I mean, you just started reading this, The Artist's Way two years ago, is that when you did it?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Three years ago.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Three years ago. So what was going on that you felt you needed to shift to change your creative process and rev the engine up again?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah, I didn't necessarily know. I remember I had that experience where my partner, my spouse, this person that I care about so much, I thought she was in a rut. I thought that she needed something to jolt her, something to kickstart her. And I was meditating, I had been meditating on a while on a speech that I could give her. Like what kind of motivation could I provide for her? And, you know, that Holy Spirit, that divine thing that can happen every now and again, you know when you know something, when you hear something and feel something. What I heard and felt was, yeah, so whatever it is that you think she needs to do, you do it. You do it first, and maybe she'll be inspired by your action, right? So that's interesting. So I did, so I, you know, and I told you the story. There was a story, a friend of ours had just mentioned that they, a group of them during the pandemic had done The Artist's Way together on Zoom, and I always thought things like that were kind of cute.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: It's kind of a workbook, if you're not familiar with it. Like, chapter one, do this.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah, so I didn't want to do it, but she was like, um, listen, I thought the same thing, but it's better than that, and she told me, so, I woke up, I started waking up two hours before Nicolette and the kids, I start waking up around 4:30, and I would do my morning pages, and I would do my yoga, and, you know, drink my coffee, and spend this little bit with myself every morning, and I'll tell you, man... I mean, day one, I felt a huge difference. By day three, by the end of week one, what I realized was, oh, I think this is what tending myself looks like. I think maybe this is what love looks like? You know, that I, I think I'm putting myself on the list. And if you have to wake up two hours before the day runs at you, before people start coming at you with what they need and how you can help them, you know, which is valid, my little, my kids are kids. They need me to do stuff, you know? But yeah, that two hours a day of spending that time with myself, man. That artist date, the whole book, that Artist Way thing is that you spend, that you write three pages a day in a journal and that you take yourself out on a solo date every week, an artist date. And she really is, it's a book about creativity and she believes that we're all creatives. Everybody in here has the ability to create something. So anyway, spending that kind of time with myself, yeah, just really helped me develop, help me understand what love is really.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: And then building on that, did that make you think differently about parenting, about your relationship at all, and if so, how?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: You know, I remember, we might as well make it a church service, but I, I remember there was like a few weeks even more down the line, I started to consider that once I realized that I think this is love, that I had no idea that I was so unkind to myself, it just struck me that this was a kindness that I was doing for this, that as I woke up early, as I checked in with myself, as I made myself my little cup of coffee and cared, gave a damn about myself, right? It meant that I could increase the thread count of my caring for other people. The quality, the depth of my care increased for the people that I that are around me because I was giving it to myself. And that verse, that Bible verse, love thy neighbor as thyself, just struck me because I said, yeah, I think a lot of us get this one messed up because a lot of us are loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. And we do a terrible job at loving ourselves too. We're treating our neighbors exactly like we treat ourselves. We are so unkind, we have so little grace, we are so unforgiving of ourselves. And that's why we treat everybody else. A lot of times we're treated our neighbors better than we treat ourselves. That was my excuse for so long. It's like, well, you should hear the way I talk to myself. You think I'm, you know. And so, it really did away with a lot of that.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Where did that come from for you? The self-hatred, can you identify it? And because you also talk about in the book, being like a tough kid in the beginning, kind of hard to handle. And so I'm like, does it go to the beginning in like early years and can you make that through line?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Sure, I think that, you know, it's like parenting stuff. I know my parents weren't thinking about this kind of thing, you know? Thinking about how they cared about themselves and all that stuff. I think this is the new frontier. I really do think quite possibly this is maybe the work of our generation. You know, I this is gonna be the great work that we leave behind. Millennials on down. I think, yeah, we are we're raising these kids new. We are trying to not hand down things blindly and unconsciously. Yeah, I think it probably came from that, from some parent stuff.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Well, let's talk about, no, I don't want to keep digging, I'm not going to keep digging, I'm not gonna keep digging. But then, so after that time, in the last couple years, what have you, obviously we know you went back to Broadway and you're working on this, and you came out with your album, where are you creatively with other projects? Because we haven't seen you in a movie or TV in a moment, so are there things festering behind the scenes, or has it really just been like, look towards Hamilton, and then we'll go?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I mean, the major work really has been like, you know with my therapist, and you know.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Oh, yeah.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah, I mean I have the, you know, the best therapist I've ever had and really just like, um, yeah, tearing it down to the studs.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I just meant more like work creatively like.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Well no -

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: But if you want to keep going I'll keep going

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I mean, well, it all relates to me. I mean well because, and part of that is, yeah, part of is a way that I am being better to myself and choosing my projects too. So, yeah, I don't, I realized after Hamilton, the world was open to us and a lot of us jumped into that thing and we got pulled every way but loose. And, you know, I mean, I think the first year or two after Hamilton, I was away more than I was home. And, I had a hundred some odd concert dates that year, and I did two or three movies and, you know and you see what that feels like. And then, you COVID really was that reset I think for everybody, you going home and being home for two years, like everybody, you know, and then as we come back, as the world starts back up, I think a lot of us thought about, okay, what is it that I want to add back? Because everything went away. The calendar's clear. And so I don't want to do that again. I also got to see what it was like to be of service to my family. This is what it's like when I'm home. Oh, I can be useful here. Where am I going? So, yeah. So, anyway. It's been, you know, Purlie was an enormous achievement and success artistically and so fulfilling in many ways and that example of Ossie Davis, this great American, not only did he, Ossie was a brilliant actor, Ossie wrote that play and 62 years later it was giving us all an opportunity to have this Holy Ghost experience on a stage for us and for the audiences and stuff. So anyway. The mandate is different and it takes time, so I'm writing, I'm producing, and I am taking good care of myself. That's what you get.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Was there any hesitation, I know you're excited to go back to Hamilton, but to step back into that fame part of it, because that changed your life. So once you detox from that, to revisit it seems like it could be a little dangerous.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: No.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: If, you came out great, but I'm just thinking like Rosie O'Donnell talked about how hard it was to detox after her show when it was at the peak, the original show and then the idea of going back to something that big was nerve wracking for her. So I wonder if that played any factor.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: No, I operate on this theory of if you don't want them to chase you, don't run, kind of thing. So I stop and I take the pictures and I sign the autographs when people want them. I don't make it weird. And so people don't, you know, I'm not somebody that you, you don't, you have to...

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: You must have had some weird interactions though. You must, like your face tattooed on their butt or something like that. You wanna see the room where it happened? Take that idea if anyone's a real big fan.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Thank goodness, no. So I think, I don't know, and we, you know, when Hamilton happened also, we were, thank goodness, so many of us were grownups. You know, it was a blessing. I think that if we were kids, really, if we, I was 34, you now, I had had Leap of Faith. You know what I mean? You know? It was Renée and me and Lin and Chris and there were lots of grownups, A lot, a lot, some of those people had they'd gone through In the Heights. And so we never really, yeah, we never really took that trip. You know what I'm saying? Like we never, we still talk to each other, we still love each other. Nobody went there. You know, nobody started showing up at the theater in sunglasses and stuff. We really understood, we really understood our job. We really understand the magnitude and how special this piece was. And that it was bigger than us, so it never was that.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Okay, well then, can you compare and explain to us, did you feel a difference when you're in a movie like One Night in Miami and you're nominated for an Oscar? Because that's another type of fame. And theater fame is a little different, even though Hamilton was in the zeitgeist. But Oscar campaigning and all that kind of thing, what was that ride like?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Well, you know, maybe I'm lucky, you know, because it's all good it all you know, in our memories, it all just becomes like this big achievement or whatever. But you know I was Oscar campaigning during the pandemic. So I campaigned from the Oscar from my garage. I was like.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: That'll humble you.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I'm getting all dressed up for the Golden Globes. We're in our patio.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Oh man, so was that, you had -

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: It was remote!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Oh, I didn't think of that. Oh, so then were you pissed you didn't get all the fame? No.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I should have more! No -

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: But then you must have been a little disappointed because then you don't get to go to the show and all this stuff.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: There were parts of it that were, right? There were part of it that were because, you know, like that part of getting nominated is like, you know, there's that big Oscar photo when like, when everybody gets together and say, we didn't have that, you know, we were social distancing. So, but then there's also, you know, I can't be sure that if there was something I think of, you know, because One Night in Miami... is a quiet kind of movie. And there was -

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: You're so good in it. Like really, so I'll let you finish your statement.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: It's a quiet kind of movie, and I do think that there was something about the world being a little quiet that allowed people to hear a movie like that. So I can't be sure that if the world was up and at 'em, that I wouldn't have even had that nomination. So I don't know. We'll see.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Do you keep in touch with Regina? Regina King?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I do, but you know Regina had that.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I know, and that's why I was just gonna ask you, I know it's super personal, but like, how is she? Because it's such a, her son committed suicide, right?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yeah Regina she's -

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: She's a force.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I think she's like, as well as you can be, but I think, she's kind of, I think she's just different forever. And you know, we, yeah, I think about her all the time, really, and I pray for her, and I hope something really great brings us back together. She was an exceptional director. Regina, and Tommy Kail, you know. Those kinds of directors, I work with a few of them, and they're, they're few and far between, you know? Regina is different than Tommy. Tommy's brilliant. Regina is this kind of director. I think that there's like three kinds of directors. There's the kind of the director that creates the environment for a fire to start. And once a fire starts, you now, they go, action action roll roll. You know, they know how to, they know to kind of stay outside of it, and just, they create the conditions and they let you start the fire, right? Regina's the kind, then there's the kinda director which is a sad case when you run into them. There's the kinda director that they wouldn't know a fire if they were on fire, you know? And they, you, they, as fires start, they step in them and they put them, you're like, there was one that was just - so there's those, and Regina though. Regina is the kind of director that she's kindling. She is a conspirator, she's a fire starter. So when there isn't one, she knows how to blow on it. She knows how really get in there with you and rub sticks together and get one started. So for all of us, I think some portion of our performance is, you know, Regina acted alongside us.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Do you think that was because she is an actress -

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yes!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: And she knows what's needed to get to those places?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Yes yes yeah! I remember there was this one scene where Regina, she wanted me, because that was a play, that script came from the script of a play. And essentially, it's like, most of it is just four guys talking, you know, four guys are talking. And there was one moment where we were kind of locked in a bit of blocking on the roof of this scene. And Regina, she needed to break it up. And she was like, so I need you to walk. Can you walk away for this? And I was like, I would love to, but I just, I don't know why I'd be walking away right now. Like I need a, I need to think why, why would Sam be walking and she goes, "...You could fart." Isn't that great? Isn't that great? It's like, of course!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: And so you did.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: And so I did! And I was like, so I'm gonna do it, but as long as like just makes, you have to promise me you won't cut around it. You will leave this in and they leave it in. So like, you know, there's the part, you know we're talking, and I walk away and I just you know... [Laughter]

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Oscar nominated farter.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Oscar nominated! [Laughter and applause]

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Take a bow, take a bow. I also was listening to your Christmas album this morning. I love listening to Christmas music when it's not Christmas. There ain't nothing like bringing a boombox on a beach and playing some Christmas music and seeing how people react. But I was listening one of your albums, because you have two Christmas albums, right? So, and I noticed that you have this single with Cynthia Erivo. And I was just thinking about, gosh, how many people you've worked with. I don't know, but I assume maybe you knew her through the theater scene for a long time. And you do this song, and at that time, it was like, hey girl, you wanna do this song? Now to get her, you're probably like, can we call her people, call that people. Because what an explosive year she's had. So what is it like to see your friends and colleagues take that journey too, and get noticed for the talents that you've probably seen for a longtime, in a way that not everyone else got to and now we all get to share that.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: A mentor of mine, I'll leave out the bad word, a mentor of mind says that his mom told him that the road to success is crowded with people on their way back. And so my favorite version of what you just described are the people like Cynthia, the people who don't change for the worse, you know. The people that... because it really is true, the fame thing or the money thing, it really reveals who you are. It reveals cracks and flaws in your character. And so it really kind of a blessing if it finds you when you are ready, and it find you once you're baked, because, yeah, it's a big old test, you know, and there's no guarantee that if it comes, how long it'll stay, and if it goes away, if it'll come back, that kind of thing. So yeah, I've seen friends do it in ways that make me proud, and I've see friends that have disappointed me, for sure. But I have compassion for it, because it's, it's a it's a hard thing that, man, you don't want it a second before you're ready. You don't it a second before you ready.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: In the book, you speak about this pivotal moment in your life where your father-in-law said, you know, like you were talking to him about your struggles and where am I going, what am I doing? Like this career isn't taking off the way I want it to. And then he said, well, I'd like to see you try. And I know at first, you're like, bitch, I've been trying, but then you sit and think about it and you go, oh, maybe I'm not trying as hard as I could. And you know he challenged you to try something every day. So I was wondering if there was something today you tried to move your career forward.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Good question. You know, that artist's way, I journaled today. I did my pages.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: And sometimes it's as simple as that, right? Just journaling. Doesn't need to be like bookin' a gig.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: It absolutely is. Because it is about, yeah, I mean, the things that we say, the things we say to ourselves, the thing we believe, they really do, we manifest them. And we manifest them, you know, not in some magic way, even though it can feel like magic, but it is little decisions, little things, little ways you show up for yourself, little ways that you betray yourself every day. These things that you say you, the things that I have in my life, I'll speak for myself. Things that I say that I want. And the most important thing is lining up my intentions behind my desire is an important thing, and so I did that today. That's something that I did today.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Fantastic. Thank you so much for chatting with me, and we're not done, though, we're not done because now it's your turn to ask him about farting or whatever else you want to ask him about. We'd love to open it up to a Q&A portion here.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: Hi, I was just wondering, I'm gonna be starting college next year, so I was wondering what some advice that you would give your college self.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Skip it!

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: What are you going to study?

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: Costume production.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Oh beautiful, costume production. You know, I just am finishing my first semester teaching. I went and had this [applause] hey, thanks, I went had this gorgeous, for the last, I don't know, almost 10 years, my friends have been moving to Savannah and to teach at this school, and they weren't coming back. Like I kept expecting them to, I'm like you're gonna go for a couple semesters then you'll be back and they have not come back. Four friends. And so two and a half years ago I went and I visited this school. I had a gig down there and I went and I visit the school and I was like, oh I get it. There's this place called SCAD, Savannah College of Art and Design. It's just a really special place. And so anyway, I'm finishing up my first semester I go once a week and teach and I'm just loving it. I love the kids so much. The things that are, the two things that I remind them, you know, that college experience is, all of it is practice. All of it is practice. And so it is practice for making friends and deepening relationships. It's practice for having tough conversations. It's practice for failing and succeeding, right? But it should be, you should insist on it being a safe space for yourself. Insist on that and make it so. Make it a safe training ground for you so that you can have some fun and try some things out. And I would suggest once you make it a safe space for yourself, the thing that I wish that I'd done in college is take more risks. Because it's a lot harder to take risks. You'll still do it, but it gets a lot harder to take risk once you leave. Because then you've got bills and other considerations. And so while you're there, of course, you want to get better at the things you're already good at. But you want also make sure that you take a look at the thing that you're not so good at, and that's your chance to get to strengthen some of the stuff that needs strengthening. You know what I mean? [Applause]

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I don't wanna take from their time, but I did wanna ask real quick, what is it like to be a teacher now? And quick, because I'm stealing their time and I'm sorry. What has that taught you to teach students?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I'm talking to them, but I'm always talking to myself, too. You know, when I get up, because I'm performing still, too, and getting ready to perform still, and so I must make myself I must, make what I'm saying true. You know? I can't I can lie to them. So I got to do it, too me too.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: So you talked about being older, more mature, when Hamilton hit and hit big. So I'm sure there were things you expected would change in your world and life, but what was one of the biggest things that did change in you life and career that you did not expect was going to change? How did you handle that?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: One of the things that did change that I was not expecting to change? Yeah, the way that your success or whatever, somebody else's perception of that can change other people. Because there is this thing, whatever, the thing that happens to you, other people are having an experience of it too. What they think about you, and yeah, that's been, man, has that been hard. But that's true of all of us, right? Like not everybody can go where you're going. As you evolve, as you make changes in your life, it is a painful thing. There are people that I did not expect to change that changed.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: So for two things, one, I've seen you a thousand times in Hamilton, I know every word. And I also saw you in The Exorcist. And so for both of those roles, you were Black in that space, but didn't say you were Black in that space. And so, for me, that's huge. And how did you navigate that? Like, how did go into those spaces?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: I mean it's all I want to be, all I wanna be is Black in the space, you know, I want to, I want to be somebody you can recognize, somebody that we can recognize because we deserve it. [Applause] Yeah, so they're tough conversations sometimes. They get easier as I get a little bit more power and a little more as I can be a producer and I have more say. I can make it so that the spaces are safer. But yeah, that's all I wanna do because I know how radical it is to see, there's something about, seeing the truth of who you are in all your humanity, which is your beauty and your filth and your folly and your brilliance and your stupidity, everything that you are that validates your experience. When somebody just shows you who you are, it validates your experience and it gives you the chance, the way a mirror can, it gives the chance to also get the spinach out of your teeth. It gives you a chance to get your wig on straight because somebody showed you who are. They didn't clean it up for you. They didn't lie to you about who you were. They didn’t make you worse, they didn't make you better, more noble than you. Just show me the truth, man. So that's all I'm trying to do.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4” Hi, you're amazing. My question is, what has been your favorite decade of life and why?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Oof! Come on Chicago!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: I'm going to -

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Come on Chicago!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: To steal that one, that's a good question to have in your back pocket.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: This one, this one right now in my 40s, a friend of mine, a wise friend of mine, man, it's my barber. My barber and pastor, he's a brilliant dude, and he said a man is never more powerful than in his 40s. Up to him, I don't, you know, some of y'all in your 50s maybe say, oh, wait till you get to 50s, but you know he said that this is the first decade of your life, it feels true to me, where you have, you still retain some of your strength, but it's the first time you also have some wisdom to pair with that. And so he just thinks it's a really powerful decade. And he thinks that he told me that, he told me, I'm saying all of this, it was on my 40th birthday that he gave me this, And I've just found it to be true, he said that almost anything you put, you put a little bit of energy into something in your 40s, and you get a lot back. You know, you get major return on a, on minimal effort, you know, you like, you fix your diet a little bit in your 40s and like your whole body, whoa, your body changes or you know you work out, work out a day a week, work out two days a week. You find a major, you these major things. Let me have one difficult conversation. Let me read one book a week you know in your forties you find a way to really, there's something magical about this decade where you know that stuff has major returns. So this, yeah, this decade. [Applause]

AUDIENCE MEMBER 5: Oh my god, I can't believe I'm actually talking to you. Oh, was I going to ask? Oh, yeah, if you have time at the end of the show, could you maybe sing a song for us?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Sure.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Yes. Your ticket fee just went up, but...

AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: Well first, good evening and thank you. I'm gonna stand up for you.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Thank you.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: You said something about being your 40s, and I agree with you. And I'm gonna tell you why, because I'm 62. And I remember at being 44, I had a 17 year old back in the day. So she'll be 18 this year, and she loves you. And one of our favorite things is the Christmas album that you did with Have Yourself a Merry Christmas. You were phenomenal. So I wanted to say on behalf of my daughter and myself, thank you for what you put into your music. Thank you for what you put into your talent. Thank you everything that you've given this audience and myself and your journey. Because sweetheart, you're a blessing. So I want to say thank you. [Applause]

AUDIENCE MEMBER 7: I too am awestruck. Question because I'm old enough to remember Sam Cooke when he was still performing. So I am interested in what you did to channel the complexity of Sam Cooke, his brilliance, his genius, and his somewhat interesting personal life.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Oh man. Um, you know, the fact that that thing started as a play, you know, in the theater, it's a playwright's world, you know, if you don't have those words, you have nothing. And Kemp Powers, what he did, you know, Kemp started as a journalist, and that play started as an article. He was writing a long form article. So he was, you know, just doing the research that a journalist would do on Malcolm. On Sam, on Cassius, and on Jim Brown, and somewhere in that he realized that, you know, maybe I could dramatize this. So that script, man, that script gave me everything that I needed. You know, what I recognized was that Kemp wanted to have a private conversation publicly, and there's something dangerous about that. I remember in the research, I was watching all these Sam interviews like this and I realized thank goodness you know dawned on me I said oh these aren't helpful at all this is Sam at work and what Kemp has written is Sam in the Black hotel the Black section of town with his three brothers, this is a side of him we never saw. And so it requires, it's a leap of the imagination. I have to take all that I know and show a different side of Sam. It's liberating. I don't wanna be Sam on the Johnny Carson show. That's not who he is when he's with his guys. So yeah, I'm just thankful for that writing to play a great dude from the South Side of Chicago.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Are you really gonna sing something?

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Sure, yeah, yeah.

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Well, I'm gonna go run and get my phone, so I'm going to ask you, I'm, I'll ask you what's the hardest song you've ever sang and why.

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: Ah, well. Ha!

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Whenever you're ready!

LESLIE ODOM, JR.: The hardest song probably is like, you know, to me there's nothing, nothing harder, I don't get any more nervous, if you can believe it, than like when people, every now and again, when people ask me to sing at a funeral or memorial service or a wedding. Those things, like those moments that are so important to people, those are the hardest. I remember I tried to sing at my grandmother's funeral. I thought that I'd be able to do it. I couldn't, that was the first time in my life. I couldn't make sound to sing. So those are the hardest. But these are not hard. These are not hard. Let me say, [singing:] "Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Let your heart be light. From now on, our troubles will be out of sight. Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Make the Yuletide gay. From now on, our troubles will be miles away. Once again, as in olden days, happy golden days of yore. Faithful friends who are dear to us gather near to us once more. Through the years, we all will be together if the fates allow. Until then, we'll have to muddle through somehow. So have yourself a merry little Christmas now." Thank you guys. [Cheers and applause]

MATTHEW RODRIGUES: Happy Holidays everybody!

[Audience applause]

[Theme music plays]

ALISA ROSENTHAL: For more information on Leslie Odom, Jr. and Matthew Rodrigues, head to the show notes or chicagohumanities.org. Chicago Humanities Tapes is produced and hosted by me, Alisa Rosenthal, with help from the staff over at Chicago Humanities who are programming and producing the live events and working hard to make them sound great. If you’re enjoying the podcast, the best way you can show your support is to click subscribe, leave us a rating and review, and share your favorite episode with someone you think would like it. We’ll be back in two weeks with a new episode for you. Thanks for listening, and as always, stay human.

[Theme music plays]

[Cassette tape player clicks closed]