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ALISA ROSENTHAL: Hey all, what's going on. You’re listening to Chicago Humanities Tapes, the audio arm of the Chicago Humanities live festivals. Happy Pride Month from us here at Chicago Humanities! I’m Alisa Rosenthal, and I’m so excited to bring you this gorge conversation from our 2023 season, between the YouTube star and transgender activist Gigi Gorgeous and her bff Gottmik, the drag performer, makeup artist, and first transgender male to compete on RuPaul’s Drag Race, chatting about friendship, sex, and all things trans. They’re interviewed by Aurora Sexton, actor and Miss Gay USofA pageant winner, with such thoughtful humor and, don’t worry, plenty of tea. Head over to chicagohumanities.org for more information on our speakers and full show notes, including a transcript. I’ve also included a link to check out their book The T Guide: Our Trans Experiences and a Celebration of Gender Expression―Man, Woman, Nonbinary, and Beyond. Check out our live calendar of events and sign up for our email list so you don’t miss your favorite speaker the next time they’re in town - I hear we’ve got some truly fab drag queens and queer speakers coming up for the fall. Recorded live in spring 2023 at Chicago’s Chop Shop - a hundred-year-old former auto body shop that now has a butcher in it and a full event space in the back - please enjoy Gigi Gorgeous, Gottmik, and Aurora Sexton.

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AURORA SEXTON: Hello, Chicago. How we feelin' tonight? It is so nice to be back in the Windy City. I called this city home for seven years and just walking down Michigan Avenue today, I felt like I was right back at home. This really is the best place in the summertime, isn't it? Wintertime. You can keep it. You know, but welcome to Chicago, Gottmik and Gigi Gorgeous.

GOTTMIK: Yes.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Thank you so much. Not Chi-Town I learned today.

AURORA SEXTON: And you were enjoying the local pizza last night.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yeah, I had way too much pizza. We had so much deep fried food at Lou Malooney's. [Laughter] Is that not what it's called?

GOTTMIK: No, I literally think it's just Lou's.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Oh Lou’s. Well what’s the M-word after?

GOTTMIK: Don’t know.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Malonnie’s. Malnati’s.

AURORA SEXTON: See, she knows. I was a Giordano's girl. Welcome, welcome one and all. We are here tonight to celebrate two amazing trailblazers in our community. I know they got a lovely introduction coming out, but I'm going to elaborate a little bit. Um, Gigi, you've been a YouTube darling since 2007, 2008. You put your whole life out for the world to see. You were one of the first trans people to document your journey and document your transition. You also did so in your film. This is Everything in 2017. You've been in magazines, TV shows. They mentioned Forbes 30, under 30. I was also on a 30 under 30 list for the Windy City Times, not quite Forbes, but still in print. But so you've done a lot. You've done a lot of amazing things. And Gottmik um, you know, you as well. Even before Drag Race, you were a celebrity makeup artist.

GOTTMIK: Makeups.

AURORA SEXTON: Mee-yake-up.

GOTTMIK: Love that.

AURORA SEXTON: Yeah, I worked as a celebrity makeup artist too, so cool.

GOTTMIK: I know. We’ve been on set together.

AURORA SEXTON: Well, we got to double team somebody someday.

GOTTMIK: Honey. Tonight.

AURORA SEXTON: We like, we like a good three way. You've worked with Cindy Crawford, Paris Hilton, Adam Lambert, Heidi Klum, just to name a few. And then you were on a little show called RuPaul's Drag Race. Do we have any Drag Race fans in the house? And you placed third runner up on season 13.

GOTTMIK: If you want to word it like that, I guess.

AURORA SEXTON: Hey, look, you don't have to win to win. I was I've been a third runner up as well at Miss Continental here in Chicago. Any Miss Continental fans in the house? One of the oldest pageants in America for trans women for female impersonators is right here in Chicago. It's one of the reasons I moved here and it's still going on today. So make sure you go and support that wonderful system. But tonight, we are going to get into this amazing book called The T Guide. The T Guide. So I guess let's start. Why did you guys why did you both write the T Guide? Why is this important to put out to the world now?

GIGI GORGEOUS: I think, you know, Kade and I are such like Gottmik and I are such creative people that we just, you know, we spiral whenever we hang out. We're like, oh, my God, what should we do? What can we create? We're both such like artists in that way. And we were like, we should write a book. Like, you're a trans man. I'm a trans girl. Like, this could be so major. And it just really came to be so naturally. And we were like, It's never been done before. We wish that we had a book on, like, how to come out and like all the resources and the stories and just all of the things that we were feeling in our minds, but we weren't validated towards because we never really heard it before. So we were like, we should really just give it all and write a book together. And then really just we just made it happen. And now we're here talking about it.

GOTTMIK: Yeah, we're, we're like crazy friends, like, hopefully be drinking in the pool and we're like, you look gorgeous with hair in front of your face, should we do a full PowerPoint about why that should be a magazine cover for someone? I'm like, Yes, we should. And we like, fully do it. It's like we're just that type of people, I guess. And we when I started transitioning, I fully really didn't have any trans guys that really, like, matched what I was feeling. So I thought I was crazy for so long. And then I moved out to L.A. and met a bunch of amazing trans women, and I kind of learned what trans was for the very first time through these amazing trans women. But I was like, Oh, but they're girls. Like, I'm not going to get anything out of that. And then becoming so close to Gigi, I was like, Just because you're a girl, it's the trans experience is kind of a universal experience, and I'm learning so much from you and vice versa. And that's like something I never saw coming. And it's so important to talk about. And I just think like, how often do you get two best friends that actually are best friends and are so open about their journeys from start to finish? And so I was like, We just have to write that, write this down.

AURORA SEXTON: Yeah. And that really comes across in this book because this, this book is written really as a conversation. It's not a how to, it's not a preachy it's very just from your personal experience, what you've both been through and the love that you two share for each other is very clear throughout this book for your struggles, your hopes, your dreams, and the advice you give to others to follow their own hopes and dreams and their transition, journey or allyship wherever you find yourself in this community. Um, and you have so many amazing contributors in this book, just to name a few. Adam Lambert. Alok. Amanda Lepore, Candis Cayne. Courtney Act. Jazz Jennings. Laith Ashley. Lina Bradford. Paris Hilton. I mean, there there's so many wonderful people in this book.

GOTTMIK: But we went off with the contributors.

AURORA SEXTON: You went off.

GOTTMIK: We really went off. We said, yes.

AURORA SEXTON: So I you know, reading this book, I remember when I was first transitioning and it was in the very early days of the internet and really even going to health care workers, you had to educate them on your own health care, which was kind of terrifying in a way. And the only real support I found online was this website called TS Road Map. I don't think it's there anymore, but it was kind of like a Wikipedia that everybody just contributed to of doctors, therapists, resources. It was very hodgepodge and this is all a one stop shop.

GOTTMIK: Yeah I mean that's what we're trying to do.

AURORA SEXTON: You know really, for new people coming in and finding themselves as a guide. How how would having a book like this have helped you on your personal transition journeys when you were first starting out?

GOTTMIK: I mean, it would have been the most important thing in the world to me because like I was saying a second ago, that I literally didn't feel like any trans guys so I was like, that's the most muscular, like cis looking dude I've ever seen in my life who tries to hide any ounce of feminine energy, period. And I just love my feminine side. Even though I don't identify as a female, I just I still love expressing that. And I think femininity is so beautiful and I want to use it as art. And I was like that there has to be something there. I know I'm not crazy. And so having something like this, it's like Gigi and I talking and even like both Gigi and I are very, very binary people. We're very on the opposite sides of the binary and stay there. And I just play with gender as art. And then but we so we’d have like a chapter where we're going back and forth and talking and then we have someone contributing in the book that is has the complete opposite idea of what trans is and is like, "I do not want any hormones, I do not want any surgery. And this is why," and it is so amazing to see them. When I was getting all their contributors’ stories back, I was reading these and it was like opening my brain up. I was like, oh my God, I think I don't have to have bottom surgery if I don't want like, am I only thinking about that? Because society's telling me that that's what like a guy is, you know, am I doing this for me or am I doing it for what society wants me to be? And so it's like this book opened my brain up because we were having conversations with just like such amazing people who have spent their whole lives dedicated to figuring out who they are. And so if I had this when I was younger, it would have been I would have transitioned so much earlier, My parents would have understood what was going on so much earlier, and it would have just been a game changer for sure.

AURORA SEXTON: Sure. What about you?

GIGI GORGEOUS: I think this book really is all about safety for, you know, like we wish we had this growing up, of course, but in safety and in the means of like the internal aspect, like your mental, really just knowing not to make the wrong decisions, like, as you mentioned, that website, that's probably not around anymore. I used to go on a website that my old trans girlfriend told me about, and I don't think it's there anymore either. I think it was called Susan's Closet. Do you remember that one? Susan’s -

AURORA SEXTON: Susan's Closet.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Or Susan's like Susan's Baggage or Susan's Closet or something.

AURORA SEXTON: Like that. Susan had a lot of baggage, but no I didn't go.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Well, you could get like, hormones off that website.

AURORA SEXTON: Oh, really?

GIGI GORGEOUS: Oh, real one stop shop. Yes. It was like.

GOTTMIK: I mean, I mean, that's me and Gigi's next business venture.

GIGI GORGEOUS: So I was like. Okay, yeah, you're suggesting it for sure. I'll just get my hormones off that website. And before I knew it, I was getting like estradiol which like you rub on the inside of your thighs, which like, you know, older women use for like menopause and stuff. But I thought it was completely like, helpful and safe and cute, but it's really not. And I think that, you know, everything everything like that that we've talked about and shared in the book, like I share something about like my pumping party and my silicone injections and all of that. It's literally is just everything that we have we've gone through. We've made mistakes and we know the outside. We know the the tail end of the mistakes that we've made and also that the successes that we've had. And we just put that in there as well. It's not all of you know, it's it's not all bad. And I think, you know, having this growing up, it would have just made it so much easier to transition because I would have been like, oh, God, I wish I had this chapter on bathrooms or, oh my God, I wish I had this chapter on hormones or dating or sex or anything like that. Like, I wish I just had heard this from somebody's lips because I can't really pinpoint how I'm feeling. And this book literally gives you every like if you go through the table of contents, it's like there are so many things like, everything's in there, bitch, everything. So we're very proud of that.

AURORA SEXTON: And I think too, and, you know, we live in Hollywood, so we know this, especially when it comes to trans stories, there's so much focus on the trauma, there's so much focus on the pain and not enough on the joy and the happiness that transitioning brings into our lives. And there's so much joy in this book. There's so much happiness and love in this book, which I think is so needed and necessary right now. At this time, we're going through an America where everywhere you look, it's all about trans people are all over the news. Why are you so obsessed with us? We're just everywhere. But but going back into the book, I want to start with your parents. You know it really, your transition, it starts with you, but it also starts with your family. And your dad said in this book, which I. I found very. It really resonated with me, he said. "I initially wondered how family and friends would react, but Gigi's expectation was that everyone would understand and respect her decision immediately and that we would all get the she/her pronouns right all the time. Well, I didn't, so I didn't do so well on that front. And it took Gigi a long time to appreciate that I could be supportive of her decision, even though I didn't always use the right name or pronouns. 20 years of using Greg and he/him pronouns didn't make the change easy to adapt too quickly for me. It took a while, but I realized I was mourning the loss of my son as I was trying to figure out how to build a relationship with my new daughter." And I found that so powerful because I remember going through my transition and I immediately knew, as did you. That this is who I am. This is what I'm going to be, and I'm going to do everything in my power to get there. And you're either coming along for the ride or not. And I didn't take into account at that young age that my mom also had to transition with me, my grandmother, my sister, my uncle, everybody in my family around me. And that it takes patience. It takes grace to walk your family through that process with you. What was that journey like for you?

GIGI GORGEOUS: I mean, I'm so happy to hear that you relate with that as well, because I feel like so many people don't talk about it. And it's something that, you know, the the aftermath years later, it's like, yeah, me and my dad are so happy. He was always there for me. We never had a fight or anything like that. But it is true. You do have to transition with your family and your friends. It's not on them. It's not them being ignorant or not supporting you. It's just them, them learning with you. And it's not on us to educate the ones around us. But I think with maturity and years in, it becomes a responsibility to do so. And that's what I felt with my dad when he said that, you know, he speaks so eloquently, but like we had, you know, a few years of awkwardness and like, what's going on. And I think a lot of a lot of trans people, they want to just erase their old past. They want to erase who they were. They want to start new. And a term that we use a lot or phrase that we use a lot, rather, in this book, as you got got to get into it or get lost. And that's something that I use in my everyday life. I'm like, if you're not going to be with me, then you're just you got to get lost. Because like, I am like a one track mind and this isn't going to succeed without me being involved and fully in it, I can't have any loose baggage. But it's like your family and it's like your friends, you know, like you have to bring them along for the trip. And it's it's so special that he was there for me even when I was pushing him away with my my transition at the beginning, he was like, no, I love you. I'm going to come with you. And I was like, no, not if you're going to be negative. And he was like, being negative isn't messing up your pronouns. I've just I've just messed up your pronouns that like, I don't mean it as like a, you know, hate speech or whatever. So I think that was really important to write about too. And I'm so happy that he wrote so honestly in the book. It was actually a last minute thing then that Gottmik and I decided we were like, wait, should we have like our family right in the book? Like, why didn't we have this? And like literally 24 hours later, they had full excerpts written and we were like, so excited to put it in and yeah.

AURORA SEXTON: Yeah. And I love that they did. And Gottmik, you know, your family and this is from your dad. "When we first learned of Kade's transgender journey, we admittedly struggled with it, and there were lots of tears and fears. For a conservative Christian family, learning the truth was not easy. We knew so little of what it meant to be transgender. Communication and understanding are key at a time when parents know little about this topic and even the child is learning to express themselves authentically." So how is that, you know, coming out to conservative Christian parents?

GOTTMIK: Yeah, I mean, it was it was crazy. And I'm someone who likes to keep everything kind of in until I'm like 100% sure what was going on. And to me, coming from like a very, very Catholic conservative background, it was like instilled in my brain that like, was trans was like the worst thing that could happen. And so it was always there. I was like, literally, if you look at my school pics, it was like I was always in Catholic uniforms. I was always in the boy uniform, boy toy at McDonald's bitch, like my parents, like, see me peeing standing up and they're like, sit the fuck down. Like it was like. They were just like, what the fuck? And so, and like, seeing all those red flags, it's so weird. But we, like, genuinely didn't have the language to express what trans was at all like. The first time I even saw were gay was was when Adam Lambert went on American Idol and I was like, what the fuck is that? And I was like, that is me. And I just didn't get it. And so my parents, they always saw something there and they're like, it's like, are you a lesbian? I was like, no, but something in there is happening. And like, I was like, there's something. In that community, but I'm not lesbian. Like, it was just something I always knew. And I when I first came out to them, I kind of already started my transition. I was like, this is happening. Like Gigi said, get into it or get lost because I need this to happen for me. And the second I injected hormones, it literally felt like the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders. It really was, even though there was no physical, immediate transformation, it just like felt like the universe is like, you got it bitch, you're on the right path. So it was insane. So I just had to tell them and it was so it was like he's just tears and insane. But then instead of like looking back, I'm like, they had they, they didn't have the language for what trans is either. Just like you did not have the language for what trans is either. And you just wanted them to like, get into it immediately. So now I wish I could have gone back and been like, this is what it is normal. And like trans people are just normal people and it's fine. But I just at that time it was so dramatic for me and I didn't have the mental capacity or space to have that conversation. But also at the same time, I've also learned that it's not always our responsibility to educate people. You know, at the exact same time, I've definitely dealt with people where they're like insanely like ignorant and then they're the if it's like on set or something and the people on set are like, she doesn't mean it in a mean way though, I'm like, it's not my job to sit here and educate every single person about how I'm not like a freak in the corner. You know, it's not always your job. So it's a weird balance that I'm even still to this day trying to figure out that it's like, you know, it is so important to be like open and honest and like, educate people. But then at some point you have to realize that you are an amazing human and a very valid person. And it's not your job to educate everyone at the exact same time.

AURORA SEXTON: So absolutely, 100%. You know, I mean, it's it's different being public figures because it's kind of our job to educate, but that's what we signed up for in being public figures. But in a personal everyday role, it's not your job to educate somebody you meet at a store or somebody going on a date with or somebody you know that that doesn't have a meaningful place in your life. You know about who you are. It's just your job to present and be a kind human being. Amen?

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yeah, there's enough going on in our minds, in everybody's lives and minds where you don't have to explain yourself to anybody. And I think that that's so important to know, because at the beginning of my transition, I was. I was ready. Every date I went on, every new friend I met, I was so ready to lay it all out for them, like, but that takes so much energy and like, nobody has that amount of energy bitch. Like that is a lot. Like my social battery is already like at a two.

GOTTMIK: Yes.

GIGI GORGEOUS: It brought it to like a zero. I just can't stand it.

GOTTMIK: Yes and people get crazy too, like on, like on Grindr or something. Like it'll say like trans like clear up front. I'm like, not playing games here with what I said. And then I'm like, you know, I'm trans. I just was like, upfront. And people will be like, so, like, scared that they're hooking up with a trans person or something in the way, Yeah, I can fucking read. Or like, I'm like, oh my God, like, these people are crazy. Like, it's just so insane. And that's what we're dealing with every day and it gets tiring. So you just have to remember, like to protect your energy and realize that it's not always your job to be like, it's okay, baby, I'm trans. Like, it'll be fine. Like, no. Like.

AURORA SEXTON: Half the time, I don't even have the energy to put on eyelashes. Like, you get chapstick. And that’s it.

GOTTMIK: You’re telling me.

AURORA SEXTON: And you will be grateful for it.

GOTTMIK: That's all of you with me right now. Yeah.

AURORA SEXTON: But that that is another topic that comes up in the book. You have a whole chapter on dating and relationships and I think, I will definitely say, at least from my personal experience, dating, I feel, has gotten easier, especially in L.A., I think I think more people are open minded to the idea of trans people, trans bodies as being more socially acceptable, even though it shouldn't have to be that, it should really be about who the person is on the inside, you know? But unfortunately, that's not the society we live in. So we just have to navigate it our own way. But I think when it comes to dating you as a trans person, you want to be with somebody who wants to be with you because they like you. They enjoy your company, not because they fetishize you and they want to have the trans experience be- because then they're just using you, you know, to to have that fantasy and then they discard you. What is your dating life like?

GIGI GORGEOUS: Like a loaded question. You better give it to him.

GOTTMIK: It's funny because I am injecting T and I'm a faggot at heart honey, I sometimes, admittedly will give in to that fetishization and I'll be like, well, I'm horny too, it's whatever. I'll give you your fantasy. But. But at the end of the day it's like that is just like I wake up the next day, I'm like, Damn, like now that is not obviously feeding my soul at all, and that's obviously not going to long term help me at all. And I'm someone who is very serious and I'm very into energies and stuff. And so when I first started transitioning, I actually stopped having sex at all because I was like, I'm not medically transitioned. I don't really know what's going on. And it's very, very RuPaul. Like, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else vibes? Because I was like, how am I going to let someone fuck me? And then I'm like, don't even. I'm not even comfortable with my body or my spirit or who I am. So I stopped having sex completely for like a couple of years, I think, until I fully was like, I'm so comfortable with who I am and I love who I am. And no matter if they are trying to fetishize me like I am going to be like spiritually connected with myself and it will be fine. And I still do run into that, obviously. And but it is like you said, way more open. I think people are really just realizing that if you're attracted to like men, you're attracted to like masculine energy. And that's what I will give you, baby. And if you're attracted to women, you will be attracted to women, and that is what they will give you, honey. Like it is like it's just people are realizing that more and more every day. And I'm like, It's been going pretty good for me. Actually. I, I have to go to the clinic after this tour.

AURORA SEXTON: Wow. Welcome to Chicago.

GOTTMIK: I know.

AURORA SEXTON: But that's that's so great. You know, if you choose to be celibate, if you choose to take a break, I think that's so important. And that's one theme throughout the book. Check in with yourself. Check in with yourself is what am I thinking? What is my reality? How do I feel? I think it's so important to constantly have those check ins mentally and make sure that you're in a good place, make sure that you're treating yourself well, and make sure that you're allowing other people around you outside to treat you well. And if they don't, they don't belong in your space.

GOTTMIK: Yeah I know, I think checking in with yourself is like the main thing. It's like it almost sounds like so cliche, but literally stepping back and making sure every single thing you do, whether it's a job, whether it's transitioning, whether it's sex, like you're like, am I doing this because it makes me happy and it's going to make me grow as a person. And really learning that which is so recent for me actually has changed my life because it's like, no, like I don't like I was saying like the bottom surgery thing. I was like, so serious, like it was deadass for me before. And now I'm like, who said that like, all guys have dicks like that. Like, who did that to me and my brain, you know? And it's like, is that for me? Like, do I really? Is that something I actually need? Or is it just what society told me? And like, same with guys. I'm like, why am I like allowing a guy to talk to me like this? Why am I you know, it's just so important to step back and being like, is this what's making me happy and helping me grow as a person?

AURORA SEXTON: Right? And for so many trans people, obviously, we want the dream. We want to fall in love, We want to get married. You know, some people want children. I don't, but I like being the auntie, Auntie Aurora. I can spoil them and give them back. But you you really hit the jackpot. You live the dream. You are a married woman.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yes.

GOTTMIK: Her husband's hot.

GIGI GORGEOUS: His hand is up. I’m calling him out.

GOTTMIK: Hit the jackpot.

AURORA SEXTON: You know when we knew you had the most beautiful fairy tale dream wedding, You two -

GIGI GORGEOUS: It really was. It was.

AURORA SEXTON: It was. It was great. But you know how special, aside from just, you know, getting married, that special feeling everybody feels, how did that feel to you as a as a trans woman, realizing that dream?

GIGI GORGEOUS: So it was not always like that? Absolutely. I would I would go on dating apps. I would I would meet people. And it felt so fetishy, I'd got exactly what K with Kade was Kade’s getting and it was very much like I want to hit that trans, you know marker. I just want to hook up with a trans person like this is what I want. And some people would play the game and they'd be like, Oh no, it's like, I really want to see you. Or some people would just straight up be like, No, I really just want to hook up with a trans person. It's like, okay, yeah, make me feel like shit about myself. Why don't you go? And it is something that is so difficult because unless you have the amount of like mature confidence to go in out in the world and be like, This is literally who I am, take it or leave it. And if you treat me any kind of way that I don't deserve, then I'm not going to give you the time of day. It's only like the insecure and the people who aren't really grown enough that feed into it. And these people can prey on unless obviously, like Kade said, if you're into that for a night or two. Hello. But finding somebody that really like, accepts you, especially as a trans person, is so it's so rare and it's so beautiful. Like I only have a handful of trans girls in my mind that are married and happy. And it's just it takes such a secure person to be with a trans person, especially if they're very loud and proud about their about their journey. It's all about loving who's like inside. And I've found that. And it's just so nice to not be insecure about who I am anymore, like sexually or, you know, just in life. It's like, yep, I'm accepted and I'm loved and this just feels amazing. And I could go out there wearing, like, tomboy clothes or like, no makeup and just not feel insecure because I don't feel girly enough or, you know, present enough female attributes. It's just one of those things where I just feel I just feel really lucky and I was just happy to share with the world.

AURORA SEXTON: I love that. I love that. You both do talk extensively about surgery and body augmentation in the book. And and as you mentioned in the book and we want to mention here, you do not, you should never be pressured to have plastic surgery, cosmetic surgery for any reason unless it makes you happy unless you feel it's going to enrich your life and how you feel about and see yourself, you should only do it for you. And when it comes to silicone, as you mentioned in the book, silicone, for those of you who are not familiar, is a dangerous substance that for many years was the only way that trans women could get those shapely hips and breasts. And, you know, basically it would go anywhere on your body. And many girls live with it. I do. Gigi does. You know, where we were very lucky. But there are so many other girls that have not been so lucky. And it's not safe. It's not legal. You can die from it. So I do not recommend it. We don't recommend that If you know somebody that's doing it, tell them. Absolutely not. Plastic surgery has come so far. Now, a lot of the girls I know get BBLs, you know, so you can you can get that shape, you know, or with trans men, you know, there's there's top surgery. There's, you know, filler, there's jaw shaving all that. I mean, there's a smorgasbord, between between the three of us we could start our own quilting club. I mean, but I knew when I was having surgery that it was going to make me happy. And I don't regret a thing I've done. But I do. I do wish in my early days that I had made safer choices. You know what what has your journey with that been?

GOTTMIK: My medical transition has truly saved my life, and I wrote in here, it's like I needed every surgery that I've gotten. And my journey with that is definitely not over. It's changing. But I don't think I would regret anything ever, because I, I just like love. I just very, I'm just like, love being a guy. I think it's like I like who I am and I just love masculating my jaw. I have filler in my jaw. I talk about in the book what type of top surgery I got and how to talk to your surgeon about what shape you want, how your pectoral muscles work and all that because it's so different and a lot of guys don't really realize that they just go in this surgery surgeon just kind of like cuts and says, have fun. But there's so many ways to communicate what the angle you want and how like when you work out what your muscles are going to do and how you find that. And I've kind of even started getting my tattoos and like the shape of where my muscles will be. And I’ll be really like a muscle daddy, you know, So it's so get ready for that era. But yeah, like it was just for me personally, the medical side of it and surgeries are so important, and even before I knew I was trans, I knew I wanted top surgery. I just remember being in high school and being, like, the only like "girl" in the locker room, like, hiding. I was like, no, this is so like, I just hated my chest and I so, I mean, if that's not a red flag, I don't know what my issue was, but I yeah, so it was very important for me to have all that. But we really drive it home in this book that that's just Gigi and I’s experience. And then we get to talk to some amazing people that don't need, don't want hormones at all, don't want surgeries at all. And that that journey is just as valid and just as important. And I am so happy that we got to highlight some stories that like talk about that because I feel like that's not talked about enough, how valid that is to be a trans human, that's extremely valid, that does not need hormones or surgery or anything so.

AURORA SEXTON: Yeah, and I you know, right now in the news, as I said earlier, we're everywhere, it's all people are talking about and a lot of it's not good. And there's a lot of misinformation out there that children are being mutilated and that they're getting surgeries on demand for seven year olds. And I'm here to tell you that is not true. It is not happening. Most times they will not approve surgeries for children under 18. What they do approve is hormone therapy, puberty blockers, you know, all those kinds of things. But, you know, trans people are just a diverse, as a diverse community as any. And there are those who choose the full enchilada or there are those who choose, you know, to get a spruce up or there are those who choose to do nothing at all and just exist -

GOTTMIK: Spruce up.

AURORA SEXTON: Which is just fine.

GOTTMIK: That is so funny. No but, even even the approval of the hormone blockers and the hormone replacement therapy. It took me, I think, like six months as an adult to even meet with a psychiatrist to get an appointment, to get months later. It's such a long, extensive.

AURORA SEXTON: Process.

GOTTMIK: Process. It's not like you can be like, yep, my kid likes playing with the boy toys. Like, like block those hormones. Like, it's not like that at all. And that is just so misconstrued in the media. It's insane because I was like, I mean, I I'm someone that I wish I was on hormone blockers, but like I do see where like the conservatives conservative side could be like, scared by that. But they don't realize that it's not it's not easy to do. It's so hard. And there's like 1,000,000 million steps before you can just do that to someone. So that is definitely something I we need to talk about more.

AURORA SEXTON: It takes a very, very long time. Yeah. I mean. Gigi how long did it take you?

GIGI GORGEOUS: I mean, when I transitioned, it was all on me. I was on Google. I was like trying to find any like endocrinologist for my hormones, which like was a new word to me. But I was like, if that's how I'm going to get them, that's what I'm going to search for in my community. So I would like drive to like several and I like, tried to manipulate the situation. I was like, I need them right now. It was so not easy. And, you know, back then it was ten years ago I remember I wanted my name and my gender confirmer or uh confider?

GOTTMIK: Marker.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Marker. That's the word there she has. I wanted that changed immediately because I was traveling so much and I would just get so triggered every time I'd go to the airport and I would get my old my deadname and my deadgender and I was like, oh my God, I don't want to even travel, but I have to and I want to. But it was so triggering and it was such a feat to get any of those changed. It was so insane. It was like, we need a therapist letter, we need a psychiatrist letter, we need uh, we need proof of, I think, gender confirmation surgery.

GOTTMIK: Yeah. Like most top surgeons, I think are like, you need multiple psychiatrists that are - in Arizona where I'm from, to change your gender marker you need, like, full bottom surgery proof to change it.

GIGI GORGEOUS: It's insane, it’s insane. So. So finally, when I ended up doing it a few years ago, no a few years ago, maybe like five years ago, I went to Canada for like a work trip. And then I was like, let me just go to the DMV there or whatever it is. And I was like, let me just passport office. I was like, let me just figure it out. I go, It's literally half a piece of paper right at the top. It's like, Would you what's your gender now? What do you want? What's your new name? Every - it was so easy and I was like, Oh my God, Canada has come so far and it's like insane. It was so easy. And then I got my passport in the mail and I was like. Freaking out. And it just goes to show you how far some people are coming and how suppressed other people are, right? Are becoming.

AURORA SEXTON: Shockingly, I had a very easy time changing my name when I lived in Tennessee. Of all places.

GOTTMIK: Bitch I live in California and I said, took me a hundred years. I can't.

AURORA SEXTON: I lived in Tennessee for six years. I still don't know how, but I did it.

GOTTMIK: They fucked up bitch

AURORA SEXTON: It's the way I lived in Chicago 2004 to 2012, and I won Entertainer of the Year and I was offered a job at Play Dance Bar. So I moved down to Nashville for six years with Brooke Lynn Hytes and many other drag race stars. And. And in the middle of that, I was like, I have to do this because I felt the same way, you know, going to the airport. You know, when they look at me, I was like, oh, God. And it was the best feeling, getting it done. But really, I just had to fill out a form. I went in front of a judge and the judge, he was like, so why are you changing your name? And I was like, because I transitioned. And he, he did, “Yep.” Bam! Easy as pie. It's a very different situation there now.

GOTTMIK: That’s that's hilarious.

AURORA SEXTON: Yeah, but I mean, you know, and it really comes down to states. There's such a patchwork of laws right now. If you're looking to change your gender marker or your birth certificate or your name, you really have to do your research in your state and, you know, with the government websites. But it it is such a confirming feeling and a wonderful feeling to finally get that I.D. card. And it has your gender marker and your name on it is the best feeling in the world. So I think I want to get into safety now because that also really ties into it, feeling safe. There, the world is not a safe place for trans people right now. You know, it seemed for a long time we were we were achieving so many successes. We were starting to see ourselves on television and in media and in government. And now it seems like everything is regressing back and becoming scarier and scarier and scarier. And some of this comes from our queer community. Unfortunately. There are people in the gay community of the queer community that don't think trans people should be part of the community, a part of the conversation. There are gay men out there that that see trans women as a complete rebuff of masculinity, which is worshiped in the gay community. Let's just be real. It is. You had a hate crime experience, which we talked, which is in the book, and you said, "One time I was doing a pride event in a small town in Middle America. In order to get into the gay club where the event was happening, you had to take an escalator. As I took it up with my friend a guy was coming down on the other side and when we passed each other, he reached over the center divide, pushed me and screamed, ‘We do not want any transsexuals here.’" What went through your mind at that moment, knowing or thinking that you were in a safe space?

GOTTMIK: I mean, that was the craziest thing ever. Because first of all, red flag, why are you taking an escalator to a gay club ever like hello.

AURORA SEXTON: They had to do something with all those old Sears buildings, you know.

GOTTMIK: Literally, like, why maybe red flag, honey. But I don't know. I'm someone who I'm just, like, so. Just, like, loud and proud in who I am. And I will show up at any circuit party shirtless orgy situation ever to live and not even think twice. And so I just was like what was here. And so he, like, reached over and shoved me like down the escalator. And I was with this other guy and it was just so insane. I was like, uh! Fell. And I was like did he just say what I think he said, like, did I just trip? Like, I was like, there's no way that was just said to me because there was a day like this past the year that that happened and I, that my friend was a psychopath and like, jumped over and like, chased him away. But I just couldn't believe that happened. And I since then or even before then, had a couple like full mental breakdowns where I was like traveling. And I've had people like in person in different countries and places say things like that to me about how they don't want me there like, I'm not allowed to be there, like whatever it may be. And it's just, you know, it's mind, it's mind blowing. I guess I just couldn't even wrap my head around it at first. And then I let my little inner saboteur win for a while. And still to this day happens where I'm like, you know, I should like, I should like mind, like watch where I am and, like, not really get into like cis men's spaces and like, I kind of would like lean back. And when I started doing that, I ended up spiraling and having these like, breakdowns where I was like, okay, I'm like, not supposed to be here. I'm not like, ever going to be have a cisgender guy experience. And I would get really upset and I'd have my friends just like on the phone or like in person just crying with me and just it was a lot of these weird breakdowns. But I realized that that's just like, so bullshit and that's going to be so in the past and it's just going to take people like me to keep going there no matter what happens and keep being louder and prouder than ever and saying like, fuck you. And I'm just I'm just as welcome as you are in this space. And if you're not into it like all that, you just go away. Like, you don't have to talk to me, you know? So.

AURORA SEXTON: Yeah. Ron DeSantis.

GOTTMIK: Thanks. Yeah, No, and. But yeah, if I can sucks at the time. But you know, as long as you have your amazing chosen family and dope friends around you, like everything is going to be fine. And you're so I emphasize so much in the book that that's so important because without like that support system, like, you know, I don't know even where I'd be today without people like Nats and Gigi and Aurora, like paving the way and showing me that, like, I deserve to be here just as much as anybody else. So.

AURORA SEXTON: And you do.

GOTTMIK: Thanks gorgeous.

AURORA SEXTON: And, Gigi, you you had a very scary running out of the country. You flew to Dubai a couple of years ago. Believe it is your first time going and they wouldn't let you into the country.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yes. So that was one of the most scariest moments of my life. I was meeting my boyfriend at the time who's now my husband. He was already there with my my in-laws now. And they were all in a boat having fun. And I had flown in from Canada. So it was a long flight and I was so excited just to get there and like check in and go meet them on the boat and have fun in Dubai. And I was met at TSA with like this really, really hateful security guard. And it was very clear he knew who I was. So he gave me a hard time, put me into secondary questioning. And then before I knew it, I was being detained and they were putting me to like another building, another area. And I was alone and I had security with me that my boyfriend set up, thank God. But it just goes to show you never know. I mean, I know so many trans girls, some of which are like my good friends that have gone to Dubai many times to meet their boyfriends, to go travel, to go sightsee. And I never thought it would be an issue. I really didn't. But I you know, I had a security guard that he just did not like me. All of my passports were every the gender marker. The names were changed, everything. So he just really pinpointed me and decided to be hateful towards me. And I ended up being detained for hours and hours and hours alone, and no one spoke English around me. It was completely terrifying. And the security I was with was hired for like an hour. And he was like, I'm not leaving you, by the way. Just see you know. I'm not going to leave you. And I was like, “It's that bad?” He was like, “Yeah, no, no, I'm not going to leave you with these guys.” And they took my passport. They were like, “She's flying out tomorrow. Like she had to get out, like. She's either leaving now or she's going to leave tomorrow.” So it was a really, really intense situation. And I just found myself pinching myself, looking around this airport where I could see there was hundreds of people around me minutes ago. And then I'm in this secluded space.

AURORA SEXTON: And the reason for your detainment was because they told you that you were impersonating a female.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yes. So it's illegal there for a man to impersonate a female. Which was very ironic because that's what I had been doing for a lot of my life. And then I decided to transition, and that's actually who I was. And they had no reason for, they had no reason, they had no they had no proof of that. It was literally the guy being an asshole and really just destroyed like 6 hours of my life and then I was like, I got angry. I was like, I'm going to I'm going to do a storytime on YouTube about this. I'm going to share my experience. I'm going to tell everyone what happened to me in Dubai, because I think it's a cautionary tale, but it's also what happened to me. And this is just frustrating and it pisses me off. So I did. And then so many people were like, oh my God, I would have never thought Dubai had this going on. And I'm like, yeah bitch, it just fucking happened to me. And thank God because I don't know what they would have done to be completely honest. Like no shade to Dubai, obviously, or any other country. [Laughter] But. Girl. It was scary.

GOTTMIK: It was scary. But there's also like one thing that so pisses me off and, like, hurts my like genuine little trans heart about what's going on with the laws in America right now in like Florida and Nashville and shit is like the fact that they're lumping the trans experience with drag queens and they're like female impersonators and drag queens as one kind of law. I'm like, that is the craziest thing in my brain ever.

AURORA SEXTON: Well, and if you read those laws, they are purposely written to be vague because what is happening right now in America is a full out war on gender nonconforming people. They do not see a difference between drag queens, female impersonators, trans people. We're all the same to them.

GOTTMIK: They don’t want to see it.

AURORA SEXTON: We do not join the normal gender standards and therefore we are a threat. And now you see law after law after law being passed where they can fine what they consider female impersonators, but they don't say exactly what that is, which could if if a trans person, if Kim Petras goes and does a concert, she could be considered a female impersonator and could be arrested. Hayley Kiyoko just did a concert in Nashville, and she was warned by undercover police that if she brought drag queens on stage with her that she could be fined and they could be arrested. And she said, fuck you, I'm doing it anyway. And she did. As they should. It's important for what they'd want is they don't want us to be visible. They don't want us. They want to erase us from public life, from public space. And we can't let that happen. We will not be eradicated. We will not be erased. And that's why this book is so important, because you're giving so much hope to a generation that is growing up with these laws, with these bills and with this fear. And you're giving them hope.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yes. Yes. [Applause]

AURORA SEXTON: You’re giving them hope.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Thank you, Aurora. I love you.

AURORA SEXTON: Yes, yes, but you're effecting change. And change comes slow. You know, you you were you were not the first trans contestant on Drag Race, but you were the first trans contestant that was allowed I shouldn't say allowed, but it was allowed, to present as your authentic self.

GOTTMIK: Yeah like cast.

AURORA SEXTON: It was it was kind of an unspoken rule that they didn't take trans contestants. And even RuPaul came out and, you know, said a couple unkind things and there was a backlash to that. And then you were you really came about because the audience demanded more representation on that show. So you were really the canary in the coal mine for everybody. The doors you've opened that everybody walked through.

GOTTMIK: The guinea pig. Yes. They were like, Well, let's just see how this one goes down, mmkay.

AURORA SEXTON: Yeah! But but how amazing that, you know, yes, there there's so many dark things happening around us in our world, but there's also so many beautiful things. And we're living in a generation of firsts. You both are firsts for your generation so that others can be second and third and fourth and fifth and sixth.

GOTTMIK: And so are you, Miss Aurora Sexy.

AURORA SEXTON: Thank you. We're doing it.

GOTTMIK: We're doing the damn thing.

AURORA SEXTON: We're doing it. So. So let's talk about some fun stuff because we got real serious for a minute.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yeah we did didn’t we.

AURORA SEXTON: So you talk about your role models in the book and people you know, that helped you, inspired you along your journey. You talked a lot about your girlfriend, Betty. Tell us about Betty.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Betty, was everything at the time. We're no longer friends. Which is fine because. She was so inspiring to me. But it's just it was a huge lesson to me because I was like, oh, my God, this is my first trans girlfriend. I met her in New York City and I confided everything in her. I gave her everything. She gave me everything. And then just things didn't work out, as you can read in the book as to why they didn't. And she was really shady, but like, still have a love for her, obvi, [kiss] I love you Betty, but it just goes to show you that - was that shady? [Laughter]

AURORA SEXTON: Just a little bit.

GIGI GORGEOUS: I was being real though! That was real. Promise. She. She showed me that, you know, your first chosen family is not always your forever chosen family. And I put so much pressure on that. And I pushed people away around me that have been around a lot longer than her because I was like, she is my chosen family. She's the first trans girl I met. Of course, she's going to be in my life forever. No bitch, it does not work out like that. And I'm very happy that she's not a part of my life. But I don't, you know, take anything that she gave me for granted, like she was there for for a reason or a season, not a reason or a reason.

GOTTMIK: Not a season.

AURORA SEXTON: A reason, a season or a lifetime. Oh, yeah.

GIGI GORGEOUS: She wasn't the lifetime one. She was the reason an the season ok.

GOTTMIK: Of the season.

AURORA SEXTON: And Gottmik, who was your reason, season, or lifetime?

GOTTMIK: I don't even know what we’re talking about anymore.

AURORA SEXTON: Right? I me neither.

GOTTMIK: Like is this a Marshalls ad like. It sounds like a Christmas ad.

AURORA SEXTON: No so you said that some of your role models were David Bowie, Adam Lambert, who who is now a friend of yours?

GOTTMIK: Yes. Yeah no I always grew up like I came out of the womb, a little punk rock diva. I just knew that I loved anyone that was just pushing the boundaries. And it's just funny looking back like me not thinking I was trans or a queer. I was just like, obsessed with David Bowie and Amanda Lepore and out of my like, what is that? What did you think was going on? Girl like, But yeah, I just loved anyone that was just was taking what society was saying and flipping and it's flipping it on its head and saying like, fuck you, who made these rules? And that's unfortunate to some how I live my life to this day because. I'm like, they're like, that's not how it's done I'm like, says literally who like, I don't think that's how it should be done. And so if and which is sometimes bad but I, you know, wake up every day and I just like, fight for what I think is right, no matter what anyone says. So people like David Bowie and John Waters and Divine, Adam Lambert, like, I remember like kissing a guy on TV was like the end of the world, if you guys remember that. It was like the craziest thing to ever happen. And now it's like normal. And it's the fact that we, like, try to ruin his career for doing that is just so crazy. And he's one of the most talented people I've ever met in my life. So definitely so inspiring to me. Just taking something that like it was him. Like he was just a very talented gay man. It was like, I'm going to fucking use this platform to show the world who I am and did it. And that's what inspires me and that's why I want to keep doing and that's what Drag Race allowed me to do and just like show my naked ass trans ass body on national television. And that's what I'm going to keep doing for the rest of my life. So that's what inspires me for sure.

AURORA SEXTON: Keep showing that ass, honey.

GOTTMIK: Oh, you know I will, baby.

AURORA SEXTON: And you know, there's so many role models in this book. I know one role model for you both and myself to is Amanda Lepore. For those of you not familiar, she is a iconic - that word gets used a lot, but she has really iconic status. Trans women from New York City. She's been in David LaChapelle campaigns. She's been on a Swatch. She's been all over the world with a million different famous people. The first time I met her was here in Chicago. She came for an event at Berlin and I was like, “What do you think of Chicago?” And she's like, “Oh, it's so nice. It's so pretty here. It's like, it's like New York with a facelift.” And there's there's other icons in this book, too. For example, lemme see. I got my little sticky note.

GOTTMIK: I'm obsessed with the annotations.

AURORA SEXTON: We already talked about silicone.

GOTTMIK: The Trans Bible's sticky notes.

AURORA SEXTON: So Lina Bradford, Lina Bradford, another iconic trans woman from New York City, she's a world famous DJ / model. Also, Candis Cayne is in the book. She was the first trans woman to be on primetime television. I still get starstruck when I see her, like I've swam in her pool and I'm just like, oh my God.

GOTTMIK: I'm peeing in Candis Cayne's pool.

AURORA SEXTON: But I remember I remember being ten years old and seeing her on television and realizing that I had a future. Because I saw somebody who was beautiful, who was authentic, who was living her life the way she wanted to and and living her dreams. And I and I think that's how people look at the both of you. No? Right. Am I right?

GOTTMIK: Aurora! Oh my God.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Aurora!

AURORA SEXTON: It's really amazing. Um. What is one thing that's not in the book that you wish you'd put in?

GIGI GORGEOUS: Ooh, well, we were actually told by our publisher that we were on a page limit because we gave too much. So we had to cut a bunch of stuff. So in, in technicality, we actually could write a T Guide part two. And there were a bunch of contributors that were cut. Unfortunately, there was a bunch of our stories that were cut.

GOTTMIK: I know like reading back, I've definitely grown so much since writing this. Like, I think we wrote this like starting almost two years ago now we started writing this. So I was reading this and I remember I was in a very strict top era in this book. And I'm like reading this back. And I was like, Well, I was like, so triggered by my body at that point where I wouldn't even let anyone, like, have sex with me, like, at all. Like, I was like, no one can touch me. No one can look at me like I'm for having sex, like, I'm going to top you and it's going to be the end of the day. Like, love that and goodbye. And I have like, grown so much and, like, gotten so much more comfortable with my body and who I am. And it's just and that's who I was at that time is extremely, completely valid. And I'm so proud of everything I said in that book and stand by it. But I've just like, grown since then. So I think, like Gigi said, there's always time for a T Guide 2. And I think this T Guide, though, is like there's no guide to transitioning. Like it's our personal journeys with people that we know and love, that inspire us, that are writing in this. And I think like so many other people, I hope get inspired by this and they're going to write their own T guides and there's going to be a billion other T guides out there written by other people who have different experiences or the same experiences, but different like lenses on the situation. And so that's why I'm very excited about this book, is just to start opening this conversation more in a literary way. And hopefully you guys will write T Guides too.

AURORA SEXTON: T Guide 2, T Guide 2. I also wanted to call out another contributor really quick. Um, who’s in this book. My good drag sister and the winner of Drag Race, season 15, Sasha Colby. [Applause] Yes. You know, her and I moved to Chicago at the same time and we came up in the Miss Continental Pageant system together and the Boys Town nightclubs and nightlife. Um, and to see what she's achieved now is so inspiring to me and so many others, but also because I saw where she came from and all it takes is care and love and support to achieve your wildest dreams and be your very best. And if you're not getting that from your family, build your own family, find your tribe. I think that's so important. That is all throughout this book. Really, really the theme of this book is being loved and loving yourself, which is so important to remember every day. I think for the average person who's looking at all this, it's important to be educated on the facts because there's a lot of misinformation out there and you have to do your own research, be be an ally, be a friend. I think most people in America at this point have, you know, someone in their family or a friend that is part of the queer community and, you know, just just letting them know that you're there. And it doesn't mean you have to send in money, although that's always lovely and helps. But, you know, sometimes it's just a kind word or being a friend. I think that's something we're losing in America is just being kind to one another and it doesn't matter, you know, what you look like, how you present, where you're from. Um, we're we're all human beings, and we all deserve dignity and respect.

GOTTMIK: Yeah. No, I definitely think being kind and just like those little words of affirmation help for sure. And I think I've learned that being an ally, it's like one thing to say you're an ally and have fun at pride and watch Mariah Carey dance around onstage only once a year. But it's like also those acts when it actually comes down to it, like, are you going to actually stand up for us when it's really the nitty gritty of it all? Like, I don't know if you guys saw that whole L.A. Dodgers things going on right now with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. But that is exactly what we're trying to talk about in this book with allyship is like they want to have this pride night and they want to say that they're there. And then the second that any like conservative Catholic people are like, I don't really like that. They were like, oh, no big deal girl like, trust we’ll pull them. And it's like, so you're not like, why are you even having this pride night like, you know, And it's like, where are your intentions coming from? So it's really important to just make sure that you're there through it all and being an ally through the thick of it.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yeah. You don't pinpoint when you want to be a part of the help. I think I learned a lot from my sister and my cisgender female sister. She when I first started coming out, she would literally fight for me out. When we would go out, she'd be like, No, no, no, no, no. It's actually she/her and her name is Gigi. And I'd be like, Oh my God. Like, what is this feeling? This feels amazing. And that's the truth about an ally. You don't have to be that savage, but you could. You could be that savage. You could be. You got to find that gay person or friend or trans person or whoever to really just stand behind and it makes them feel so safe. And other people will disarm. When you give them that energy, it will like shut it down, you know. So that's what she taught me. And she's just so like she's in the book as well. She writes about her coming out experience. She's queer now, the past few years, but she wasn't back then. So, like, apparently, you know, an ally then now, not an ally now, but yeah I think.

AURORA SEXTON: There's a lot to unpack there, buy the book.

GOTTMIK: Go buy the book.

AURORA SEXTON: And most importantly, vote.

GOTTMIK: Right.

AURORA SEXTON: Votes. Run for office. Run for your school board, run for it. Go to PTA meetings, be involved in your community, because that's where you see these these awful bills springing up from. It starts small and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and good things can happen just as easily the same way. And to close out our discussion, I want to give a quote from one of your contributors. The first trans senator from Delaware, Miss Sarah McBride. "As exhausting and frightening as this moment for trans people is, I remain hopeful. With those extra responsibilities that come with being a trans person in politics comes the inspiring opportunities to meet people throughout our community. What I've seen is that our community is diverse, vibrant and resilient. I've seen that we are organic agents of change, opening hearts and changing minds through our presence. Indeed, the change we seek will not come from politicians or public figures alone. It will come as more and more trans people open hearts and change minds in their neighborhoods, their schools, workplaces and faith communities. Having met so many members of our community, I am aware of how powerful we are and this gives me immense hope for the future and it gives me hope as well." I want to thank all of you for coming out tonight to support this incredible book. I want to thank the Chicago Humanities staff Kris Simmons, Sam Leapley, our stage manager Kate, and Chris. And thank all of you. And a big thank you to Gigi Gorgeous and Gottmik.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Thank you, guys.

GOTTMIK: And thank you, Aurora Sexton icon of my life.

GIGI GORGEOUS: Yes. Thank you, Aurora.

GOTTMIK: Love you gorge.

[Audience applause]

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ALISA ROSENTHAL: That was Gigi Gorgeous, Gottmik, and Aurora Sexton at the Chicago Humanities Spring Festival in 2023. Chicago Humanities Tapes is produced and hosted by me, Alisa Rosenthal, with help from the awesome team over at Chicago Humanities. Shout out to the wonderful staff who are programming these live events and making them sound fantastic. For more than 30 years, Chicago Humanities has created experiences through culture, creativity, and connection. Check out chicagohumanities.org for more information on becoming a member so you’ll be the first to know about upcoming events and other insider perks. We’ll be back in two weeks with our season one finale, and lots of fun stuff to come over the summer. The one and only musician, artist, and activist Joan Baez, at the historic Old Town School of Folk Music. But in the meantime, stay human.

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