ROXANE GAY: I've always written and I've always had opinions, and I'm definitely the kind of person who leaves an argument and like, seven hours later, thinks of the exact right thing I should have said in that moment. But that isn't the case when I'm writing. When I'm writing, I say exactly what I want to say, how I want to say it,

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ALISA ROSENTHAL: Hey everyone what’s going on, you’re listening to Chicago Humanities Tapes. I’m your host Alisa Rosenthal, and my job is to help us answer humanity’s biggest questions by diving into our 35 year archive of incredible minds and conversations and bringing them from the live Chicago Humanities Spring and Fall Festivals direct to your earbuds.

Today, acclaimed writer and New York Times opinions contributor Roxane Gay is joined by Chicago author Lindsay Hunter. Roxane Gay is the author of best selling essay collection “Bad Feminist,” as well as her memoir “Hunger: A Memoir of (My) Body,” and her newest collection of essays “Opinions: A Decade of Arguments, Criticism, and Minding Other People's Business.” They chat culture both high and low – you’ll hear their thoughts on identity politics and the 2024 election… and then what authors would make up their dream Real Housewives cast. Check it out.

Make sure to hit subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to be the first to know about new episodes, and head to chicagohumanities.org for more information on our upcoming live events.

Recorded live in November 2023 at the University of Chicago, this is Roxane Gay with Lindsay Hunter.

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LINDSAY HUNTER: Hi, Roxane.

ROXANE GAY: Hello Lindsay. It's so good to be here, Chicago. I hope everyone's enjoying the warm summer day. I saw lots of white men in shorts. As your people are want to do.

LINDSAY HUNTER: I have to say that that's a midwestern specialty. The white man in shorts in cold weather.

ROXANE GAY: It is. I'm from the Midwest and I've seen it quite a lot. Yes. And also the flip flops out in snow.

LINDSAY HUNTER: And the the one sharp toenail. You guys just keep doing you. We love it. You're going to use that for something we know. Roxane. Congratulation on congratulations on "Opinions."

ROXANE GAY: A thank you. Thank you. Congratulations on "Hot Springs Drive."

LINDSAY HUNTER: Thank you.

ROXANE GAY: I believe the Washington Post said it was the next Gillian Flynn. Well -

LINDSAY HUNTER: Chicago's own. We're both in Chicago, so I think we're going to fight at some point. I think that's what.

ROXANE GAY: You must. You must girl fight!

LINDSAY HUNTER: Right? There's only room for one, so stay tuned. I'll let you guys know. Follow my Tumblr. I have a little paragraph that I wrote, and I just have to read it, or I'm gonna mess it up. All right, I want to start by talking about what a gift it is to have a writer like you in the world who has crucial viewpoints and shares them so directly, so elegantly, so fiercely. In your introduction to opinions, you talk about how formative it was to watch your mother, who's here tonight to today. Yes.

ROXANE GAY: Hi, mom.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Mrs. Gay, will you also sign books after the event? Watch your mother voicing her opinions. And you have become that figure for me. Someone, a woman who can connect her thoughts with her voice, who owns her position, who allows for contradiction and being wrong, but who never stops using her voice. I'm saying, Roxane, that you are my mom, and I am baby Roxane.

ROXANE GAY: Amazing. I've always wanted a child, especially one that's fully formed [5.9s] and brought me brought me grandchildren.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Thank you. I'm glad that you accept. It's it's not an easy thing. It doesn't seem easy, but it does seem like it's a natural way of being for you. And I am so grateful for your example. I did not grow up in a house where voicing my opinion as a girl or seeing my mom voice her opinion was a welcome thing. And I, it has been revolutionary to watch you and to read you. And now we get a collection of a decade of your opinions, and it's incredible.

ROXANE GAY: Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

LINDSAY HUNTER: I would love to hear you talk a little bit about you touched on it in your intro, but I would love to hear you talk a little bit about how the act of writing these thoughts, these opinions, may have changed over the last decade.

ROXANE GAY: Well, you know, it's interesting. I think of myself primarily as a fiction writer, and no one else does, much to my chagrin. But I've always written and I've always had opinions, and I'm definitely the kind of person who leaves an argument and like, seven hours later, thinks of the exact right thing I should have said in that moment. But that isn't the case when I'm writing. When I'm writing, I say exactly what I want to say, how I want to say it, [18.4s] and I love being able to do that, being able to articulate my understanding of the world in the way that only I can. And each of us can do that in the ways that only we can, in ways that are informed by our subject position and how we move through the world. But when you first start out writing opinions, you are often on this sort of churn and burn where you're expected to write an opinion in hours after something happens, like something terrible happens and an editor emails you, "Got any thoughts about that thing that just happened?" No. I don't. I didn't know it happened yet. And so back then it was like a lot of churn and burn and certainly I believe everything I wrote. But there wasn't a lot of time to consider and to really think about what I felt beyond that initial moment. And now, of course, I am bad with deadlines, and editors know not to pull that with me anymore because they're not going to get it. And I in all seriousness, I have a lot more time because I can take the time, because I recognize that I don't actually have to respond in the immediate, and that most of the time, I don't know what I think until I've sat with something, and oftentimes until I've done a little more reading and a little more learning and thinking and seeing what other people are saying. And then I'm asking myself, well, what would I bring to this conversation?

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah. I think, you know, you're a writer who I think of his as really academic, like, really just direct. I know I've said that already, but very informed. One of the "smaht people," as we say in Boston. But in all of your writing, you can see the human within. And I feel like that's really, unique to you. It's something that you brought to the table with, with this kind of writing, your incisive yet approachable, exacting, yet human. I think that can be rare. I think it's becoming more common because of you. But, you know, I think you've opened the door to that that kind of work. How how do you keep yourself in it as you're writing about these things that may not necessarily have anything to do with your life, but we see your humanity as you're writing about them?

ROXANE GAY: Well, I think it's important to recognize that we are all sharing this planet together, and there are a great many people who are in profound denial about that, and who think that they can beat Mother Nature and climate change, which how's that going? And can beat each other and sort of hold dominion over one another without consequence. And so I it's not that I feel the need to put myself in everything, I do not, but I do feel the need to acknowledge that we are all affected by the ways of the world, and some of us are affected more than others, depending on our proximity to whatever the thing is. And a lot of times when I read nonfiction, it seems like people have forgotten that or that they can approach it in an intellectual way that elides the human experience. If I'm objective, then I will get to the truth of the matter. But objectivity is a myth. It is not a thing that really exists. And the people that say they're being objective, that's not an objective assessment.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Drop the mic.

ROXANE GAY: We're done here. Thank you.

LINDSAY HUNTER: See you all at the table. I'm going to kind of switch back and forth between, like, smart questions to questions that sort of pick your brain at culture things, because that is that's our Roxane, right?

ROXANE GAY: Yes. Give it to me.

LINDSAY HUNTER: We go to her.

ROXANE GAY: My favorite Real Housewives franchise is Beverly Hills.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Okay. Okay. Next question. No, it is related to the Real Housewives because obviously, if you were a Real Housewife, what would you be holding in your hand and what would your catchphrase be?

ROXANE GAY: I would be holding a blade. I just came up with that too. I'd be holding a blade because I cut.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Is that your catchphrase?

ROXANE GAY: I guess so. Little murder.

LINDSAY HUNTER: So let me just. Let me just do it for people, okay? So this would be you. I cut.

ROXANE GAY: Yes.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yes.

ROXANE GAY: Okay. Well, maybe I should add another, like, half phrase. Like I think it needs another beat. Yeah. We're going to, like, work.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yes. Let's workshop. Yes.

ROXANE GAY: Yeah.

LINDSAY HUNTER: I cut you.

ROXANE GAY: I cut. No. I think I would hold a knife and say I cut for keeps.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Oooh! Yes, that is the correct answer. So back to being serious. Okay, everyone just chill. So in your intro you say that your your favorite thing is identity, identity politics. And I think that there can be a bad faith argument that why should we focus on identity politics? What does it matter when there's climate change, when there's war and famine and all these terrible things happening? Which is bad faith argument for certain reasons, and -

ROXANE GAY: Not only that but that's an identity politic. To sort of deny everything else.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Please continue. Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: I mean, what a privilege to be able to say. There's so many other things going on. Let's not worry about your race and ethnicity or your religion or your sexuality or your gender. Like, sir, sir.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Because we all know it's a man.

ROXANE GAY: I mean, always the reality is that climate change affects people of color more than any other group, and it affects people in the developing world far more than any other population. And so how on earth do we talk about that without talking about identity?

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: Yes.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Who should the Real Housewives of the literary world be?

ROXANE GAY: Oh man, for the literary world, that's a great question.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah. Gillian Flynn.

ROXANE GAY: Yeah. Is it really Gillian?

LINDSAY HUNTER: It is. Yes, I know, isn't that shocking?

ROXANE GAY: Wow.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Did everybody know that it's Gillian?

ROXANE GAY: You did like girl lead with that. It's a hard G. Now in the literary world. I think Jennifer Egan.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Oooh.

I know. A little unexpected.

LINDSAY HUNTER: I think that would be her catchphrase, too. "A little unexpected."

ROXANE GAY: And yes.

LINDSAY HUNTER: This is a chapter in PowerPoint whatever.

ROXANE GAY: And then there's my other housewife choice would be, very unexpected. Would be Donna Tartt. Right? Think about it. She's the housewife who only comes out every once in a while.

LINDSAY HUNTER: That's genius. She's southern, but she's also Bennington. Yes. So she's.

ROXANE GAY: Sort of a mix.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Freak.

ROXANE GAY: Of everything.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yes. Okay. And Roxane Gay?

ROXANE GAY: No. Never in life. Oh, god. No, I don't have time for all that. And I would be like Jenna on the new New York where she's like, I'm not flying in coach with you guys. It's like, I can't do it. But that's not my ministry.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Everyone has a price, though, Roxane. So if Andy Cohen is here, we're open to negotiations.

ROXANE GAY: For sure. For sure. I mean, I don't think he could afford my price, but I'm fine with it. Let's go Andy. He wouldn't want me on the Housewives because I would be like the killjoy. And I'm not a killjoy at all. But, like, there would be, like, a moment where the producers are like would you like a little more wine? I would, and I would just say, why are you trying to get everyone drunk so you can get better television and then edit these women into versions of themselves they don't recognize? He would regret it within a day.

LINDSAY HUNTER: And Jennifer Egan's mascara is just going down and she's like, Roxane's right. What am I doing? No, I do think the literary Real Housewives, we would all be in bed by like 8:30.

ROXANE GAY: Well, most of us, but I actually write at night. So while the rest of the women were sleeping, I would be awake writing about them. This is like on my Tumblr.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yes. So you're at night. You've been writing at night your whole career, right? I remember you talking about that back when you were writing Untamed State. You're still doing that?

ROXANE GAY: I somehow. Yes. I can write at any time of the day. And circumstances often dictate that I do write at any time of the day, but my preference is to write at night. Once the world has sort of calmed down, and I've checked my email so many times that my emails like, go away.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Get a life.

ROXANE GAY: I'm not gonna get any information tonight. And so when that happens, then I like to sort of really write between 9 and 2. Oftentimes later if I don't have obligations the next day, which doesn't ever happen. But it's I don't know, I just prefer it at night. It feels more natural at night. I think the work comes out better at night. Sometimes I delude myself in thinking, oh, maybe I'll wake up at 7 a.m. and really get into it.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Maybe I'll be a whole new person tomorrow.

ROXANE GAY: Yes. And then at like 6:45 when the alarm goes off, I'm just like. Today is not that day.

LINDSAY HUNTER: We can dream.

ROXANE GAY: Yes.

LINDSAY HUNTER: What time do you wake up when you're writing til two?

ROXANE GAY: It depends.

LINDSAY HUNTER: What's the day and day in the life like for Roxane?

ROXANE GAY: Between 8:30 and 9:30.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Oh.

ROXANE GAY: Yeah.

LINDSAY HUNTER: It's that's a grind.

ROXANE GAY: It's a grind.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: It is, it is. But you know, I always remind myself I'm not doing surgery and I'm not picking coal mining up as a hobby. So yes, I may not get a ton of sleep, but I teach English and write. So yeah, I can do it on like, no sleep, it's fine. Yeah.

LINDSAY HUNTER: I just think that being a night owl means you're a natural Real Housewife. So I'm just putting that out there. I can move on.

ROXANE GAY: There's definitely a connection. Yes, it is.

LINDSAY HUNTER: I'm glad that we came to that agreement. How close are we to Trump regaining the office of the presidency? And what mistakes did we make during his presidency and in 2016 that we should be mindful of not making again, because it does feel like we are making some of the same.

ROXANE GAY: Oh. Already.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: It's exhausting. First of all, there's no point in looking at any poll that's happening now. It is not an accurate poll, and it's unethical for these pollsters to be not only running these polls now, but putting them into the public just to generate attention and more business for themselves. So if you're on social media today, you're seeing a lot about the New York Times Siena poll. Ignore it, ignore it. It's not to say that there's not a problem, but we don't know what the problem is actually going to be. Today's problem is not the problem that we're going to be talking about in three months or six months or nine months. And so the first thing is let's forget about the polls. They were wrong for the past two elections also. Why on earth are we still worshiping at the altar of polls when they can't get it right?

LINDSAY HUNTER: Who's answering their phone?

ROXANE GAY: That too.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Those people don't know what's going on.

ROXANE GAY: Yes, contemporary polling still hasn't adjusted to the reality that people under the age of 60 don't have landlines most of the time. And so it's a very specific demographic that tends to have landlines and that also answers their phone. Did you know that young people don't answer their phones at all? They like look at the number and they're like I don't know what that's about. So we have to figure out more effective ways of polling a more broad demographic than the people who are going to answer their phone in the middle of the day. It's not rocket science.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: And yet. But the fact that Trump is the leading candidate for the Republicans while facing, is it 61 indictments.

LINDSAY HUNTER: 91. 91.

ROXANE GAY: That there are no laws to prevent this? And that he will win the Republican nomination. And they will cravenly support him until the very end is extremely alarming. What's also alarming is that the people who were already disillusioned and grudgingly voting for Biden, those people are increasingly disillusioned. And so there is a window of opportunity for Trump to win again. And we cannot be blindsided the way we were in 2016 with the way some of us were. And I include myself in that. When Hillary Clinton lost because a second Trump presidency would be a disaster that we cannot even conceive of. That's how bad it would be. And I need more people to recognize just how bad it would be, because we saw what he did last time. He's going to learn from those mistakes. And if he won't, the people that are sort of propping him up will. He's not the problem. It's all of those really sort of sickly looking 30 year olds that look 100 that are working for him. You know, they sold some piece of their soul to be adjacent to power. Those are the people we have to worry about, the people that have implemented truly horrific policies at our borders, who are trying to eradicate the federal government, who are trying to continue to make the wealthy even wealthier, who are trying to close our borders to everyone in need, and who are trying to discard anyone who does not have any money. Like that's what's at stake. And we have to talk about that every single day between now and next November, and acknowledge that we need a better choice than Joe Biden. And we can do both. I firmly believe we can do both. We should not be voting between a 79 year old and an 81 year old. It's insane.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: And it's not because older people have nothing to offer. But how can you trust the lives of a majority under that age population when they don't really have much left to look forward to. It's just like, what is Biden going to do? I mean, it's terrible and it's just true.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Is this what gets Roxane canceled?

ROXANE GAY: Yes.

LINDSAY HUNTER: We're here for it.

ROXANE GAY: I have been waiting for so long. But I'm over the gerontocracy. I think all of our elected officials are shitting the bed right now in every possible way. They are literally going to give $14.5 billion that could be spent here on I don't know all of the tent encampments that I've seen around the city and that are all over Los Angeles and Portland and Seattle and Washington, D.C. and New York. And it's not that we don't care about the rest of the world. That is not at all what I'm saying. We have to do both care about the rest of the world, care about genocide, care about encroachians on a border, care about terrorism, care about people who are being held hostage. We have to do it all, and we are capable of doing it all. Donald Trump, is not. And so we have to remember that as we contend with the disgrace of what this administration is doing, as well as the good things that they've done, because, like it or not, Biden has done some very good things over the past four years. And. So that's where I'm at today.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah I agree. I think that's, a really good way of putting it in that, you know, we have to, we have to go with the one who's not going to destroy democracy, and then we can.

ROXANE GAY: Well, not only democracy, but democracy around the world.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Right.

ROXANE GAY: These things have consequences. When you are the president of the United States, you are also in many ways, the leader of the world. And we saw a lot of strongman leaders come to power during Trump's reign. And that would happen again if he was reelected. And he will not care about Rwanda or Sudan or Yemen, Israel, Gaza, Palestine. Let's be real. He will not care about those places -

LINDSAY HUNTER: No.

ROXANE GAY: - more than the Democrats will. Unfortunately, all politicians care more about their political lives than all of the people in those countries and in this country. So until we really figure out that component of politics, until we decouple money from political success, until we get rid of lobbying. We have to make bad choices. But avoid terrible choices. And it's unfortunate in a country like this. It's just unfortunate.

LINDSAY HUNTER: It's unfortunate and our election season is too long. And these polls that are coming out now a year in advance, as you're saying, they mean nothing. And if you look at Obama's polls at the same time, he was down. And I think about how the grabbing by the pussy tape was a month before the election, but then the FBI saying Hillary's emails were going to be under investigation was after that. And so that's what mattered in the election. So it really does come down to the very last second it seems.

ROXANE GAY: People have short memories and -

LINDSAY HUNTER: Very short. Especially in today's day and age.

ROXANE GAY: Every year in politics they talk about the October surprise. It's the polls that start next October that you really have to look at.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: It doesn't mean we're not going to be doing ground. You know, ground level, but. Local grassroots is the word I'm looking for. We have to be doing lots and lots of grassroots work between now and then. And also we have to have serious conversations about who are some viable candidates that can win an entire country, not just places that were already going to vote blue. That are under the age of 60. Who are they? How do we prepare them? And how have the current people in office not started grooming younger candidates to take over?

LINDSAY HUNTER: Right.

ROXANE GAY: And so how do we also have that conversation. And I don't actually have any answers because I don't understand politicians that work well I just look at them sometimes. And I just think, you do know we watch you on C-Span? We can see what you're doing and they're like, yes, I know.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Write your postcards, make your phone calls.

ROXANE GAY: Yes.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Do it every day.

ROXANE GAY: It does matter. I know it can feel futile, but it does matter when you call and reach out to your representatives. Both at the state and federal levels.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yep. So what will we anti-Trumpers barter in the gulag? And can I be your gulag bitch? When Trump is president.

ROXANE GAY: You'll have to get in line. I that's like I have no idea. It's going to be rough times when they start rounding up the dissidents, which is like everyone. But I'll trade on my good looks first.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Everyone here will burn their copy of "Opinions."

ROXANE GAY: You're gonna have to.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Let's just all make eye contact. Make that promise, okay? If that if it comes to that. This is something that I thought was really important that you touched on as well, which is how do we balance staying informed and supportive and active with the human and maybe uniquely American tendency to make ourselves part of something that isn't actually about us, which is such a social media mindset, right? We want to be part of it because it makes us feel like we're doing something, but we're not actually doing anything. So how do we, like, stay active, knowledgeable and supportive without like, sort of canceling that out by convincing ourselves we've already done enough.

ROXANE GAY: I don't know. I think humility goes a long way and recognizing that social media is real. The people you connect to on social media are real. You can say things on social media that will have consequences beyond social media. But. Only speaking out or doing things on social media is not a substitute for a robust range of activism choices that one can make.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Right.

ROXANE GAY: Now, there are also many people who can only do activism on social media, and I think it's important to acknowledge that and not limit them and suggest that what they're doing doesn't matter because it does.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Right.

ROXANE GAY: But I do think a lot of times people who have a lot of other choices decide that I've said something on social media, I'm covered, and I can go on and just address the rest of my day.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Right.

ROXANE GAY: When we do that, you know, our reach is so limited. But when we try and talk to the people in our lives, when we try to engage actively in our local communities, we can also do quite a lot of work. And. I've noticed in recent years and even in recent months, in recent days, that a lot of people are assuming that if they don't see something happening on social media, it hasn't happened. And I'm I'm writing an essay about it. I'm calling it "ideological impermanence," just like with children, where if they don't see a toy, they think the toy is gone. And we're starting to expect people to opine on things that they don't know anything about. Just so we can say, ah they've said what I need them to say. And so I think we should all hold ourselves and each other to a higher standard where, yes, we should care about the world and we should speak out against injustice. But just saying things without caring, without sincerity, without learning about what you're actually saying, is harmful, but taking some time to educate yourself. Taking some time to make sure that what you're saying is real, that you actually believe what you're saying and are not just saying it because you're expected to say it would go a lot further. But it's complicated in some ways. You know, we just live in a world where performance seems to carry a lot of weight.

LINDSAY HUNTER: I saw John Early, you know the comedian John Early, he has a bit where he didn't, he felt like he, his generation hasn't learned how to do their taxes. But they know how to be a badass. And I think that's the problem right? Like we don't know how to do anything meaningful other than to be like yeah, you know, Black Lives Matter! You know? And it's like there's there has to be some meaning, meaning action behind it. Right?

ROXANE GAY: There does. And I don't even know that it's so much generational as based on personality type, because there are a lot of really interesting Gen Zers and whatever is below them and sort of generation hierarchy, they are scary and very committed and they are really willing to put in the work in their lives, marching out of schools, holding protests, demanding that their institutions divest from a range of institutions and -

LINDSAY HUNTER: Suing their state for climate change reasons.

ROXANE GAY: Yes and so I also think that it's important to look at the stuff that's actually happening beyond the people who don't seem to do anything beyond performance, because there are then the people that are actually walking the walk. And when I see them, I'm always just like, wow, at your age? Amazing.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: It's just amazing. And I take a lot of, I guess, education, for lack of a better word from what they're doing. I went to my high school last week, and those kids, the kids are okay, guys. They really, really are. I sat around with a bunch of young women and non-binary people, and they were each talking about what they do, and they all do like 500 things. And they're like, and I'm, I run this nonprofit. And they say it in that voice because they're five. And in my free time, I also run marathons, and I also run our local chapter of Black Lives Matter. And it was just like, wow, I at Highland High School, I was like. I'm awake. And that's a good start.

LINDSAY HUNTER: You did it!

ROXANE GAY: I did. I made my bed today.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Oh, in high school.

ROXANE GAY: Well, I went to boarding school. Oh, I know you didn't want your room to look gross. Well, I didn't. And I was raised by a clean freak, so I just had, you know. Turns out you can't fall far from the tree.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Today's the day that you're going to name your nemeses.

ROXANE GAY: I'm not, guys! She's full of shit. That's never gonna happen unless you pay me $1 million.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Does it rhyme with Waylor Wift?

ROXANE GAY: No it doesn't. By the way, her little relationship with Ravis Relce. It's fascinating, isn't it? Have you ever seen the media obsess so much over like a pop star. Powerful. Amazing. And a football player.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Who looks like he's straight from the 80s.

ROXANE GAY: He does. And, you know, I like sort of that -

LINDSAY HUNTER: The mustache.

ROXANE GAY: And I think it's the Nebraska in me that sort of cornfedness.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Totally. That's a that's a man in shorts in the winter. Yeah.

ROXANE GAY: Exactly. He just looks like a big slab of beef. And beef is delicious.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Oh. That Midwestern beef.

ROXANE GAY: It is. I think we can all understand the appeal there. But I also it's so weird to see the ESPN guys and the sports guys who are normally like, interception, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Sports words, sports words. Trying to, like, talk about Taylor Swift in ways that won't get them in trouble. They've made football really interesting because they're just so confused. And I really enjoy it.

LINDSAY HUNTER: It has swept the nation. My second grader got in the car one day and said, mom, did you know Taylor Swift is dating Travis Kelce? And I was like, how do you know either of those people? You're seven. But it was just the talk of second grade.

ROXANE GAY: It's the talk of every grade. And but she is not my nemesis. And my nemeses are people that are worthy of being my nemesis. So a lot of. A lot of people think it's like, terrible people like, oh, is Donald Trump your nemesis? I think the fuck not. No. My nemeses are like peers or people I imagine, to be peers and and of course, CrossFit. That one, I will proclaim loudly. They try to jump on stools. And then they do all these other things that are actually injury prone. And they love it. And they call the gym a box. And -

LINDSAY HUNTER: There's always some kind of like, dog theme to it. It's like -

ROXANE GAY: Terrible. It's, it's not for me.

LINDSAY HUNTER: There's like a giant trash can that they puke into.

ROXANE GAY: And then there is a, a cable news broadcaster.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Ooh.

ROXANE GAY: That my wife is obsessed with.

LINDSAY HUNTER: And that's a nemesis.

ROXANE GAY: That's one of my nemeses.

LINDSAY HUNTER: Okay, everyone, let's talk after. Okay? We'll figure this out.

ROXANE GAY: It's always super, super petty, ridiculous reasons. Please. So many people try to apply nobility to this thing. There's literally none at all. I assure you that each nemesis was born of the stupidest possible reason. Thank you everyone.

[Theme music plays]

[Audience applause]

ALISA ROSENTHAL: That was Roxane Gay and Lindsay Hunter at the Chicago Humanities Fall Festival at the University of Chicago in November 2023.

Chicago Humanities Tapes is produced and hosted by me, Alisa Rosenthal, with help from the team at Chicago Humanities for the programming and production of the live events. Head to chicagohumanities.org for more information on how to catch your favorite speaker in person the next time they’re in town. New episodes of Chicago Humanities Tapes drop first thing every other Tuesday morning wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, give us a rating, share with your friends, and scroll through our incredible backlog of programs to discover a gem that might surprise you. We’ll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode for you, but in the meantime, stay human.

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