HEBRU BRANTLEY: I had the idea to do as kind of a lark, this cartoon that sort of didn't exist. But it put, you know these Black children into the space of Bugs Bunny or Batman in that conversation. And so to do it as a lark, like I found this stuff. And then I kind of appropriated it and so forth. And the response was really good. And it was to the point where like, maybe there's something here. And it also just felt fun.

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ALISA ROSENTHAL: Hey all, thanks for checking out Chicago Humanities Tapes – we are the audio extension of the live Chicago Humanities Spring and Fall Festivals. I’m your host Alisa Rosenthal, and I’m here to help you find the answers to humanity’s biggest questions by bringing you the best of the best of the live festivals. Speaking of live festivals, our Spring 2025 festival is currently underway. Hey events are selling out, so if you're in the Chicagoland area, you can still grab tickets to some great programs, such as PBS’ David Rubenstein with Walter Isaacson on the journeys of American presidents, a panel on Sustainability, Community, and the Arts in Chicago curated by the students of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago Arts Administration Program, Dr. Ibram X. Kendi on his new book about Malcolm X for young readers, Top Chef’s Kristen Kish, and so much more. Head to chicagohumanities.org for all that good information.

Today: Bronzeville native and preeminent Black pop artist Hebru Brantley in conversation with visual artist and MacArthur Fellow Amanda Williams. Brantley’s iconic murals are central to the Chicago experience; you’ve definitely seen the pop art renderings of children, specifically Black children, in fighter pilot helmets and goggles if you’ve strolled neighborhoods such as Logan Square, Lincoln Square, Uptown, West Town, and the Loop. I linked to a map in the show notes where you can look up where the closest one to you is, and some other fun stuff.

This is Hebru Brantley and Amanda Williams, recorded live at the Illinois Institute of Technology at the Chicago Humanities Spring Festival in May 2024.

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AMANDA WILLIAMS: Hello.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Hola.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: So the number one question I got asked when we agreed to do this was, can you give me tickets? The second question was, I didn't know you all knew each other, and I was in shock that people don't know that we know each other. So I thought we would start off by talking a little bit about our history, kind of our trajectories and why it is that even though the style of our work is so different, that there are a lot of synergies. I think oftentimes when people imagine artists, they don't understand that we are interfacing with each other even if there's not a kind of outward proof of that through the work that we really are. Support networks, and it doesn't mean that we have to be like in the studio making paint together or whatever. Like there's a kind ecosystem that exists. And especially in Chicago, you're seeing right now, particularly Black and Latino artists, you're seeing this kind of rise in our celebrity globally, but really we are kind of this loose network of people that really are cheering for one another if not working together. And so you have a history in this immediate neighborhood. You grew up not far from here. You went to De La Salle. I taught at IIT in architecture for a long time. But I think really our connection started probably just before your work was gonna explode with Flyboy and I was starting to paint the houses. So maybe you can take us back a little bit to that moment and kind of your memory also of Chicago. Like, you know, we are children of the Oprah, Michael Jordan, pre-Obama era. Like Obama is great, but like we just thought we were supposed to be phenomenal. Like when you grow up. and that's what your television is showing you every day, like that's the energy and the ethos just in the Chicago air in the 80s.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: For some, for some. Not all, for some.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: So okay, expand, I'm gonna be open, I expand.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: First of all, you're really good at this, so you might want to consider it like a side career. I think that there's outliers within every community. And for me, I grew up over here. And Bronzeville community when I was coming up was very different than how it is now. It wasn't a community anymore, right? It was a bunch of people disconnected. And for me, the thing that I really appreciated about the area was the history, but the idea of sort of what it used to be and what it probably could be again. But in that, I didn't really have a lot of connectivity to the arts and to other creatives as I was coming up. In high school, for example, to keep people from talking shit and getting into fights, my schtick was I could draw. I'll draw you a tattoo. And that became a part of my identity. but it wasn't a thing that was celebrated within the community.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: The larger culture.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Right, and so it's having to go out and sort of find other outliers within Chicago. And I think even now, like when we talk about, I'm sorry if I'm jumping around a little bit.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: No, no, no. Go for it.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: You and I, knowing one another and a few other artists from Chicago or live in Chicago that I know, I think it's a result of people with similar missions and similar intention, obviously going about it. Everybody has a different path towards that, but recognizing that. And it's just an energy about it to where it's like it's it's a supportive system that we kind of foster and create. Because I don't personally find too many people like yourself, like a Theaster, or people that are in the same space, that aren't competing, but are celebrating and bringing in others like themselves.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: So, but by the time I met you, I feel like, to your point, there's a mission, but there also is like a swagger that I don't feel New York has. You can speak on whether LA has that. But there was never a moment that either of us, or at least this is the way you outwardly presented to me, right? There was never moment where we didn't think we would be here. Like we didn' think we would here. We didn't we'd be all of that stuff that people are reading. But we had such a commitment to the work we were making, and such an excitement and a kind of curiosity about the work, it was like, yeah, so what I'm gonna do is, and then I'm a, and then it's gonna explode, right? Like that was our mindset, and I don't think that we imagine that we rocket this quickly to these kinds of stages, but I do think that that was an energy. So do you feel like, because art or drawing or like what your interests were, and you weren't pigeonholed as an athlete, like you had a whole different interest. Do you feel like you had to cultivate that kind of confidence or was it always there? Because that's what I mean about like, I just had an assumption that you're supposed to be excellent. I have great parents that did that, but also that just felt like the energy. Do you know what I means? So do you feel you weren't sure and then that evolved and that the work you were making started to help with that, the characters and kind of your inward imagining of these things? Or do you like that was always there. So by the 2010s, we were like: and then, and then, like we had visions, you know what I mean?

HEBRU BRANTLEY: But I think a lot of that came from our own ignorance.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: This is also true. We didn't know nothing.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: If we sat and thought about what it took to get there as opposed to I'm going to get there.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Probably move a lot slower, right? Yeah.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: But for me, I grew up in a situation where I had one parent that fully nurtured my creative and then one parent that didn't fully get it, right? You know, not only parents, but family members, et cetera, that kind of tried to pull that out of me. Right, like, it's a lofty dream. Yeah, onto the next thing, find stability. But for me, that was the only dream, that was like the only thing that made me happy.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: That was the only thing that allowed me to function as a human. And so, it was make or break, there was no other thing. It was only this, and so, but again, with that ignorance of like, it's just this. You know, I just kind of forged ahead, and obviously, you know, we are what we are.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: So maybe talk a little bit about, because I think I experienced this as well. When you are, what people are now calling a multi-hyphenate, when you can do a lot of things, it sometimes throws people off, right? They're like, pick something. You're scattered. You're never gonna be good at anything if you don't pick one thing. And I think for you, the breakthrough was when you created Flyboy and Lil Mama. For me, it was Color(ed) Theory. But talk about the work that led up to that. Do you feel like there was a moment where you made that conscious decision to hone in on those things? Do you feel like those two characters really were bringing together all the work? The early work of yours that I saw was when it was much more black and white and almost like glyph, and then there would occasionally be a completed colored component where there'd be one figure that stood out. And I always loved that work because I could see the whole story coming and then sort of a thing. And not that it's not that Flyboy and Lil Mama are not great, but those were like whole worlds almost. Sure. Right? So in my mind, they're like almost the backdrop or the kind of, all these movies now have the origin movie after we've seen the whole whole story, right? Like it's the origin of the movie, you're going to do the movies for them and then, and then we're gonna go back to the origin story. So can you talk a little bit about that trajectory? Was it really that linear or were you really just figuring things out and then this sort of second idea emerged?

HEBRU BRANTLEY: The truth is, I've always been all over the place. You talk about multi-hyphenates. I've had aspirations to do probably way too much. And that is true in the work that I've always done where... Like I work on anywhere from five to 10 pieces at a time. But that doesn't mean that those five or 10 connect narratively, aesthetically. They can literally be just thoughts or moods. And I think what I tend to do is try to, if there's three pieces within that 10 that I connect to, I try to connect them, right? But when it came to the early work I did, I think that there was, I think it was a response to the market at the time. And moving, I went to Clark Atlanta after college, I've talked about this a lot in the past, but I moved around a lot, right, because I didn't have any formal arts training or education. And so my arts education became crashing on people's couches in different places in the world and then like finding that person or those people that do it and just watching over the shoulder. Right? This was kind of predating like the YouTube era, and so I had to find the people that were actively making to understand what making meant. And within that time, moving back to Chicago, Chicago's art scene was vastly different, obviously, than what it is now. And there was no place that I fit. And I think that there was a determination to fit, right? And not only to fit but just kind of like move some shit out the way. Here I come, I wanna do this. And I took slow steps with the work to kind of raise my hand, like hey, I'm here, I here, here. But my approach was always you know, one, like, more the rebel, more I'm gonna ask for forgiveness, not permission type of vibe. But I think that as I got to know people within the space, and as I got to understand what art was, because I still didn't know. I knew what my art was but I didn't what fine art was. I had a very narrow view of what it was. But as I got to understand it, I think I tried to... intentionally course correct the work and guide the ship towards something that became a bit more palatable for my immediate audience. But what I mean by immediate audience, I mean Chicago, right? Black collectives and collectors and so forth. And it's not to say that that wasn't me because absolutely it was, but I felt like I was catering to, right, and it wasn't, you know, it's a bit of like, it wasn't all I was, right, it wasn't, I didn't feel like it was a full outpour of what I could do and the things. And so, you know, looking at what I loved and what I appreciated growing up as a kid, what were the things that made me happy? And you know a few of those things that just held through, you know I'm a 40 year old man child, right? Like I'm a big kid.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Very good.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: You know, the things that made me happy were graphic novels, comics, anime, cartoons, anything within popular culture, cult culture, right? These cultish films and animations that I would watch. And so I just thought about like that, and then I thought about growing up reading Sunday funnies, like reading Charles Schultz, the Peanuts, and how he took these kids gave them so many layers, right, to the point where they became palatable, not even really for kids. The aesthetic was for kids, but the thought and the idea and the narratives behind it was more for adults, right? It was adult humor. And so I kind of applied that method within the fine art space, and creating characters. But again, it was all by accident. I kind fell into it. It was a thing that like, you know, Theaster had done, Yamaguchi, it was Yamaguchi, right? The institute things, and it was kind of around that time, you know, when he was doing that, and I had had the idea, because we were talking all the time, and had the idea to do as kind of a lark, like this found animation, this cartoon that sort of didn't exist, right? But it put, you know these Black children into the space of Bugs Bunny or Batman in that conversation. And so to do it as a lark, like I found this stuff, right? And then I kind of appropriated it and so forth. And the response was really good. And it was to the point where like, maybe there's something here. And it just, it also just felt fun, right. And I think that was the most important thing. Like whatever you do, you don't want it to, no, I mean I don't give a damn if you're a pop singer or you're making millions of dollars. At some point, what you do is gonna feel like work, right? But for the most part, it didn't feel like work. It was fun. Like I ran to it, right. I didn't walk to it all the time. And so being able to kind of recraft a narrative and not worry about being heavy handed, because whatever I wanted to say came through the mouths of babes, so to speak. And so that was kind of where everything was born. And I've told this story a million times of wanting to put historical context and have something weighted with what I do, with what create. And so that was, again, in finding the Tuskegee of it all and incorporating that into the what if this kid had, there was a relationship to that history and that level of heroism and how to tie these themes together. And so, yeah, it was just, again it was a lot of fun and it kind of grew into this thing that I didn't anticipate it being.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: So we've seen a lot of the work. You are hugely prolific. Can you talk a little bit about, like, it is work now for both of us, and we were just talking about, you know, me having to let go of the reins a little bit in terms of support to produce the work, but how often, talk a bit about when you were starting and now that you have a whole operation, how often are you drawing, are you sketching, are you making work? I feel like there's a freedom where you make it and you're on to the next, you're onto the next. I'll catch you onto the next. And maybe that also comes with the idea of comics or illustration, and that's a medium where you're able to kind of.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: The turnover is fast.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: So how, then and now, how often do you feel like, like do you still have that sketch pad with you every day? You know, are you tagging sometimes? You know, like, what's that?

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Well, I mean, honestly, everything is the same. I still create at a very feverish pace, only because, well, for a few reasons. I never drew that parallel to graphic novels and comics and all of that, but it makes a lot of sense. Though I didn't come from that world, again, I appreciated it and was still and fully in it. But I think for me, it's more of a matter of boredom, where I have these ideas. I get so excited about an idea. And then I know that I have to see it through. Otherwise, I won't see it though. Otherwise, it'll just stay half painted for years. And don't get me wrong, I still have a ton of that. But yeah, I think it's just important for me to kind of put, you know, put this sort of the heat to it, you know.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. Right away.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: When it's there, right? And a lot of the stuff that I do, majority, I'd say probably 80% of the work that I create, people won't see maybe until I die, maybe not then. I'm actually moving studios in LA, I was telling you, and I was trying to take account of all the works that I have currently in the studio. And most are finished, unfinished, halfway, you know, whatever, but I had 135 paintings that were stretched on canvas and I'm like, yo, I have a problem.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Your collectors do not think you have a problem. They're like, what, wait a minute, what? Yeah, but I mean, I think that you, for me, have a freedom of being able to, and it wasn't that I thought they were incomplete, but I loved, again, the works that were more glyph or had these limited colors, because they really are vignettes about getting to a whole story. For me, that's what it feels like like you're just making it, and 20 years out, you'll be able to put together something that you didn't realize was really the buildup to this not just flyboy little one, but all of these kind of components.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: The world.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Yeah. I want you to talk a little bit about the range of media. So I know that some of that is a strategy in terms of what you were talking about early on about like marketing or marketability. But I too also see it as a kind of a maker's energy, where you're like there is no medium that I will not transgress. So talk a bit about confidence to really transform these characters across everything and also that kind of reach into popular culture. Some of that was marketing, but do you also feel like that's a moment of, we're MTV children, right? So we saw sound and image altogether, right, and words, that was normal for us, that words should be on the screen at the same time as these components. So you got shoes, you probably got wallpaper, I don't know, you got, you know, if you don't, you should. No, t-shirts. And people are losing their minds. They're like, yo, the shirt comes out at midnight. Do you know him? Can you call him? I'm not calling him for a t-shirt. But you really are transcending that range and keeping the excitement across these media. And we often have peers or artists historically that are not just, we're like just a sculptor, just a painter, just printmaking. And so talk a little bit about those decisions that sometimes get made, maybe for strategic reasons, but are there also these kind of creative moments where you're like, I need to see that as a larger-than-life thing, or a commission might come. Talk a little bit about that process.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Well, I think when it comes to the merchandise component of my business, again, I've spoken on this before, so if you guys have heard this, apologies. But, you know, I'm a collector, right? I grew up a collector. I didn't have any money, but what little money I did or I could beg borrower still, like, I went and bought basketball cards, comic books, you know. I mean, a bunch of other stuff that was worthless now, but. But even as a kid, little kid playing with action figures and things like that, that's where I sprang from and so it's always been, the idea has always been cool to me of having things that are accessible, right? Because I think art for a lot of people is so inaccessible.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Right, like there's a finite number of people that will go to museums, right? Consistently, without being taken there, without, you know, a school project, whatever. And I'm one of those people that comes from that space. Right, I didn't grow up in that space, and even now as a parent, like, you now, I get invited to openings every weekend, or every other, and I'm like, I can't go to all this stuff. Like, but the people that are there typically are a certain type of folks, and it's nothing, I appreciate the folks that are the patrons for the arts, but there's so many other people that feel like they don't have access to. And so, a lot of what I do, I want to be able to speak to those people as well and kind of bridge that, right? And if I can be sort of a conduit for someone younger or even older to kind of come into and understand fine art, that's kind of the goal. And you know, I looked at, like, again, I'm a pop art kid. Heavy pop art kid, right? Like, looking at Warhol, and, you know, shit, Basquiat now, right, like everybody, who doesn't know Basquiat now, but why is that? It's because rappers are screaming the name, it's because there's countless books everywhere, it's the accessibility of the artist now, right, there's so many people have monetized off of the name. And for me, I wanna do that shit while I'm still living, right? I wanna make things that allow people to participate in my vision while I am here, not when I'm gone and I have no say of what's made and what's created, right. So, thank you, all right. Yeah.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Yeah.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: But yeah, so that was kind of, that's always been the goal. It was like, once I get enough money, I'm gonna start making some shirts and dada. But that was also how, that was a part of my understanding of the art world, right? When I was in college, that's how I made money. I hand painted shirts, jackets, hats. College students have disposable income and I'm gonna take it, I'm coming for it, so, you know. And at the time it was fashionable, right, and it's one of ones. And then, you now, stylists, I went to Clark Atlanta, right? It was like around that time where Atlanta started to really develop their new identity in Black culture, right, within music at first. And so there was plenty of stylists who were like, hey, Atlanta's also this big, right. So if you do a thing, you're gonna stand out. You know, people come in, I need a shirt for Usher, he has a video shooter, he has this, or I need shirt for Drama, or whoever, right? And sure, I'd oblige, but again, it was a way for me to practice the craft, and I always understood that it was a means to an end, like there was a way to elevate my skill set and get out there. But there's a power in tees, like you think about like, how do you get propaganda out there? How do you spread people's message? Look when Obama ran on the Hope campaign, who did he go to? Shepard Fairey, right? And through doing that, he engaged an entire audience that no other president or presidential candidate had ever. And it was, it was brilliant. And so for me, I'm not saying that I'm trying to do that, but it just, you know, I look in the audience now and I've seen a couple of people as I walk in that have on things that I've created. That's the greatest feeling in the world, right? Like, I made that because I thought it was cool and you thought it was cool too! Again, that was sort of the mindset around that. I think I hope I answered your question.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Yes.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: OK.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Speaking of brilliance, can you talk a little bit about the original vision for Nevermore and then the process of pulling that off during the pandemic, because that was brilliant.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Thank you. So when I first started doing Flyboy, Lil Mama, when I started just really doing the characters, there was never like a prescribed narrative, right? I would just inject them in narratives, and for the past, I want to say eight years, every time I had a moment, I would write down a thought about where Flyboy comes from, what the world is, yada, yada yada and building a Bible. And I'd gotten to the point where everything, I'd spent a full year just, that was it. Besides painting, I was just really intent on making sure that this Bible made sense and 400 plus pages is kind of ridiculous and I had way too much time on my hands. I wanted to do a graphic novel, but then I thought like, how can I bridge two audiences, from sort of the art world to, you know, again, people that are interested and invested in narrative-based works, how can I bridge that? And so the idea was to do an immersive exhibition around the origin and narrative of Flyboy, right? And to give true narrative to that character, that world, those characters, et cetera. And so that's sort of where it came from. And for those that, don't know or didn't experience it, the idea was that you sort of walk into a gallery that was an in-world gallery. So in the world of Flyboy, there is a gallery and you're sort of implanted in it. Upon arriving, you get a newspaper, in-world newspaper, and in the paper, you know, there's articles, there's advertisements, and everything sort of ties back and correlates to what you'll view throughout the exhibition. So you walk through that gallery, and then kind of like Alice Through the Rabbit Hole, right? There's a painting that's sort of blown out, and you enter in through that, and then you sort of are into the world of Nevermore and Flyboy. And, you know, again, I wanted to feel as immersive as possible with the, you now, we were limited by scale and budget, so doing real commercials, like you entered in through a old school newsstand, and as a way of you know, an old school way of disseminating information. And so the radios in the newsstand had different ads playing on a loop, and all of these things were created to give a sense that like this was a place that this was lived in world, lived in space. And so, you know it kind of served a few different functions. But the main one was to entertain and engage, right? For all ages. So again, you had the art side, the strictly art side which was the gallery component and then everything else was, it was art as well but it was stuff that you can actually touch, right, climb on. And to me, that's a lot more fun than just white walls and white wine and. And nothing wrong with that, but again, I just, you know, been there, done that, I've experienced that as a creator and wanted to give more to my audience.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Well I mean I think the extension and this goes back to this idea that as artists we always have these things bubbling in our heads and for you it was a natural extension of what these characters already were and what you needed to be doing as an artist but also in that moment we see now in hindsight the way in which artists came alive in a different way so you know initially I was like I'm not doing nothing this is great and then that's five minutes and then you're like I'm secretly doing watercolors in the dark before my children wake up like each artist has such interesting stories and so I think, again, you know, just a nod to the level of ambition and vision all the time of like, no, you gonna, time tickets, like how is he gonna pull this off? We can't go anywhere but we going to Nevermore? Like, and then it was another world, it was hope, it was escape, it was something else to get invested in. So I know there was all those things but it really did, I think extend, you know people's ability to be away from the reality of what was going on and to take that risk to be in another space.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: What was only intended to run, so we opened October 2019, and it was intended to be run for six weeks. We ended up going six months, and then we ran into COVID. Oh, COVID, you know? And so, you now, but we had a hell of a run. And again, it was just meant to be a blip, but it became something where people would come back, you know, and we had lot of return visitors, which wasn't the intention, but it was great. And I think that there was a lot of things for a lot different people, right? A big part of the research for doing it was to do a bit of revisionist history for Chicago as well. And so you had an older audience that would come and get a completely different experience based on certain things that we had around the place that they connected to from their past. And then a younger audience that was just like, Oh, this is cool, colors, fun, you know. And so, again, it was a thing for everybody. Bring the whole family down to Nevermore.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Which is better, Chicago or L.A.? No, don't answer.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: I can totally answer that question, Chicago.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: But you left us now. Talk a little bit about.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: It's too cold. It's too cold!

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Come on.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: I didn't know global warming would take effect so fast, though, like right after I left. Like, y'all don't even have winters no more, I heard.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: At LA it's like 65 degrees.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: It's actually colder in LA.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: There it is.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: And it is here right now, so yeah.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: But talk a little bit about what it means, that something about the title is representation, whatever. And I was thinking of kind of like 90s represent, right? Like what does it mean to represent two places? And then also, what is LA, you've gone there for a certain ambition, but what do you think is infused or even brought out that you resist? Like what is LA doing to the way you think about the work from a creative standpoint? We know from a strategic standpoint or moving into ideas about content, but do you drive around like, what's wrong with these people? And you're drawing it, does it change the color palette? What is LA really, where do you feel like that's kind of funneling into the way you think about things?

HEBRU BRANTLEY: I think more than anything it just allows me happiness in the end. In Chicago, I grew up here. And in Chicago, we all know a certain point from, I'll be generous and even say, January to May, most times, skies are gray, it's cold. I don't function well, I realize. And I think as I got older, I realized that it's not good for my creativity. It takes me a long time to get going. And being out there, allows me more opportunities to, you know, if I want, if it's February or March and I don't wanna work in the studio that day but I still wanna work, I can go someplace else, be outside, you now, and kinda catch a vibe and go. And so I think that that's the biggest upside to LA, honestly. And you know quality of life for my kids where they can be out and you know I don't have to throw on three layers of clothes and do that whole dance, but, you know, other than that, I mean, I do, I'm in Chicago all the time. I mean it's great to be here. But again, there's just that. But I will say this, every time I come back to Chicago, it's like, I'm not even joking you, as soon as I hit that airport, as soon I come through over here, my spidey senses are going to the point where like, oh shit, that's a dope idea. Oh, that a dope, and I'm just, and a lot of times I'll end up, friends, family wanna see me, what are you doing tonight? And I'm working. You know, like, because I'm so inspired by being back, right, you know, in Chicago. So, you know it still functions that way, you know, but yeah.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: So we're going to jump to Q&A.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: No questions, great. See you guys later.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: I would just like to know if you could expand more on your characters just to learn a little bit more of what inspired, a little bit more about their inspiration, a bit more specific on Flyboy and Lil Mama.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Well, with Flyboy, like I was saying earlier, a lot of the inspiration is borrowed from the Tuskegee Airmen, and just, again, this idea of heroism. And you know within popular art, a lot of artists appropriate and have appropriated characters that are in the zeitgeist. So like the Mickey Mouse's and things of that nature. And for me, that never felt, no knock on them, but that didn't feel like my way in and that didn't feel, it never resonated in a way where it like it. it caught me, it just felt like a copy of a copy just put through the machine a little different. And so I wanted to create my own or have my own characters that I could use in similar ways. And so Flyboy, if I'm drawing comparison, could be like Mickey and Lil Mama could be Minnie in that way. But I think Lil Mama's probably the most important in the way that, like I grew up, my mother had eight sisters. So I had a lot of aunts, and I grew up around, you know, a lot of women, was raised by women, and then even in my neighborhood over here, that's all I had, you know, like there was very few boys my age, and so it was like hanging out with bossy-ass, know-it-all, moody, very tough young ladies, and, you know. The idea of Lil Mama kind of came from that and trying to, you know, infuse that power, that prowess that, you know, young Black women have into that character. And then thirdly, you know, I have the character, Phibby, it's the kid with the little frog helmet on, and that kind of came from something different. The idea of a Black kid wearing something as ridiculous as, you know like a Kermit the Frog head was more from my own personal experience as a Black man. As I start to travel into different spaces, like I'm 6'8", and so one of the things that I noticed was how people noticed me and how different people noticed. You know, I found myself at times trying to make other people, and again, I'm a very nonviolent dude, I am chill, but I found at times myself trying to make other people feel comfortable when I stepped into a space. And, you know, it didn't sit right with me, right? I present, I should just only be, I should only have to present myself as I am and take it or leave it. And so, I've had these conversations with friends and I have a few friends that are darker skin. And we were out one time and one of my friends was hurt and he basically was like, yo, you go in there and ask for help because they not gonna help me, I'm too dark. And so the idea of somebody coming that's sort of peacocking and wearing something that's so disarming, right? Something that's almost, it almost harkens back to Step and Fetch It or Blackface, like the acceptable way to sort of view us is in this way, and it's palatable. It's, oh, I understand you now. So it's kind of a nod towards that, if that makes any sense. So those are three of the main characters.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Hello, I really appreciated what you said about, like, growing up in Bronzeville, really, like being able to see the history around you, and then also, like a lot of what you were talking about was inspiration from murals, and I really resonated with that because art museums aren't always, like the most accessible, but I grew up, like walking around and seeing the murals in Bronzeville and they kind of remind me of your work because so many of or things that have happened in the neighborhood. And that honestly inspired me to begin showing off the murals in Bronzeville through my own tour company. But I wanted to know what murals or art did you see in Bronzeville as a child or just like while you were here that might've inspired you?

HEBRU BRANTLEY: That's a good question. Well, some unfortunately aren't here anymore. I've lived over here since I was eight maybe, eight years old. And so I think probably from about maybe 35th to 45th maybe, there were some of the residue, right, of a time past and they echoed from everything from your typical MLK, Martin Luther King to deeper historical Afro Cobra works. And then obviously as you go further in South Shore, there's a lot more. And so that was sort of my path between home school and my grandmother's house, is what kind of informed a bit of my taste, right? And with those murals, again, they had such vibrant color, and the palettes just always felt different, right? They were never really muted, and I just, that's what caught my eye. So, I don't know if there's like a specific one, but it was, again, and forgive me, because I don' t know what is still existing, and what has kind of, you know, been lost to time, but you know it was sort of between that space.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Hello. Hi, Amanda. Hi, Hebru. I have two questions. So one is kind of couched in a comment, which is a big thank you to you and your studio practice. Two of my sons, Kari and Kahari, were interns with you at the time, and it was such a valuable experience for them. I'm curious. if you are still engaging with young artists in your studio in LA. And then, my second question is, every time I pass your old studio, I think, next time I see Hebru, I'm gonna ask him if we can activate that with some mural work on the exterior of your building.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: It's me and you Dorian, let's do it.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Well, the second question, we were just talking about that. So yes, we can definitely talk afterwards. But yeah, I try to as often as possible. I think it was easier in Chicago because there weren't many other artists like myself doing it and you know, I also started in Chicago before I even had a practice I was teaching at Little Black Pearl and so, you know that it was a lot of spillover from that time and you knew a lot about the younger kids and you know obviously the two wonderful sons and some illustrations I still have to this day, we'll talk about that later, but yeah, I try to I think now it's more about sort of doing, setting up times to speak at schools with different organizations, and then I usually get four or five kids after that, and what I'll do is either have them by the studio or I'll try to help advise them on getting that bump in their career, getting started and giving them a little direction.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: I have a question about the art scene when you were coming up and the art scene now and hoping that you could describe sort of what it was before when you are coming up and how you would describe it today the Chicago art scene specifically.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Um, that's a good question too. Hmm, you guys are good, you're really good, okay. Um, I think, and again, this is my perception, so don't hold me over the coals for this, but I felt, and I've said this a lot, like, you know, Chicago is sort of the middle child, right, and culture has always sort of been sort of brought inward, right, from LA to, you now, New York into Chicago, and for a lot of things whether it's you know music art so forth, and I felt like when I got here we were kind of in a space where we weren't you know we were trying to act like the cool kids like the big brothers, but we weren't there yet and you know again, there were people in the space that were actively pushing and you know bringing it here but then there was just a lot like it was decorative BS. It was like I need this, this matches, this ties the whole living room together, this piece works wonderful. So it was a lot of that is what I found. Again, that's me personally. But at that time, I mean there was only like, Theaster was starting, Cary was here already, Cary is Cary, and Rashid was in New York. And so he would grace us every blue moon. but you know, primarily it was Chicago still trying to find its own identity within the space.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: And what do you think now?

HEBRU BRANTLEY: I mean, I think we do a pretty kick-ass job. But I also think that, and as I say this, I'm one of the artists that left. But I think that Chicago has begun to really cultivate its artists and its art scenes and their practices in a way that didn't happen before, right? And so I think obviously that's a big factor as to why it feels so robust now and so different.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 5: While I don't know if this is a great question or a selfish question, I'm a collector as well. Sneakers, what have you, music. And I have three of your T-shirts, and I wanna know how do I, I tried to buy one of your prints at a time. I get ran over online by this stuff. I'm not fast enough, clearly, so I need a way to be able to do that. Whether we trade numbers, bump into each other on the street, whatever. I'm in LA a lot, so you know, I can come to LA. Whatever you need, bro.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Well, I got you. We'll talk after.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: Hello, I was wondering if you could speak to the artist who's creating a lot, hoping that something hits and then something sells and is finally paying the rent, but it's the art that they hate making. Do you have words for us?

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Yes! Come with the question.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: You want to take that one first?

AMANDA WILLIAMS: I feel it. I want to hear your answer. I feel that. I had a traumatic moment recently, so I want to hear this.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Is the question -

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Like what do you do when you make the thing that's kind of okay and everybody's like, whoa, and then they get it and then, they're like, where are the next 12 of that? And you're like hmm, I don't, is that kind of right? And the rent is being paid with this, the, uh, piece. Are you making 12 uhs, or are you like, no?

HEBRU BRANTLEY: The us are making the money.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Yes.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: But the ah is the thing that everybody wants.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: No, the ahs are you, but nobody's seeing that or they're not really checking for that.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Oh, shit, I don't know. I honestly I don't like I think you know I think it's it's one part you know preparation one part luck and I think, you know, it's, it is one of those things, again, I know how I was able to kind of break through, but it's different for everyone.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: I mean, I think we've lucked out the uh and the ah as the same thing, but I heard Kara Walker mention that she was tired of the silhouettes, and then people were like, mm-hmm, we don't like those puppets. When is the silhouette coming back? And then she was at a point where, yes, it was paying the rent, but she could take that risk, but that is a real struggle.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: Well, I can speak to that, too, because again, like a Kara, I mean, obviously I'm no Kara. But doing things that feel repetitious for the sake of.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Paying the rent.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: I know it's gonna sell.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Yeah.

HEBRU BRANTLEY: It does become very boring and I think this year, these past two years have been really challenging for me because I've been fighting that so hard where like I tell you I get bored and I wanna do things that I feel like are innovative and new and it's hard because there's an expectation that is weighted on you of the next work needs to look like the last work or maybe just the elevated version, you know, wash, rinse, repeat. And so, I don't know, I think that for me, it's been a thing where I found success in slowly eking out the other stuff, right? The stuff that, the ah, the ooh, the yeah, the aah. And people being receptive, right, it's like, as long as I still got a little, you know this over here, the oh, the ahh is, you know is, and so and it's kind of what I'm leading towards with the new stuff where there's a hint of the old, but primarily this is, I think artists, it's tough because I feel like artists should be allowed to evolve in a way, right? And some artists are really good at their evolution because it's very, very calculated, and especially musicians. When you look at how an artist can transform from album to album, it's still that artist, but there's an elevation or there's a evolution to the work, and you don't typically get to see that be a success within fine art as much, because there is an expectation of that thing. I don't know, I'm pro just do the shit that you want to do and it'll find an audience.

AMANDA WILLIAMS: Excellent. Yeah.

[Audience applause]

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ALISA ROSENTHAL: To learn more about Hebru Brantley and Amanda Williams, head to the show notes or chicagohumanities.org.

Chicago Humanities Tapes is produced and hosted by me, Alisa Rosenthal, with help from the hardworking staff over at Chicago Humanities who are producing the live events and making them sound great. If you’ve been enjoying our programming, the best way to support the podcast is to leave a rating and review, click subscribe to be notified about new episodes, and send your favorite episode to someone you think would like it. And hey we want to hear what you think! Fill out the short survey in the show notes to help shape the future of the podcast. We’ll be back in two weeks with another new episode for you, but in the meantime, stay human.

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